then in the afternoon, washington, d.c.'s mayor and police chief testify on the city's response to recent protest over the israel-ma war at george washington unersity and the surrounding area. that's live before the house oversight and accountability committee and at 1:00 p.m. eastern. you c ao watch our live coverage on the c-span now video app or online at c-span.org. c-span is your unfiltered view of government, we are funded by these television companies and more including media com. >> add media com we believe that what you live here or right here or way out in the middle of anywhere you should have access to fast reliable internet. that's why we are lead. >> media com supporting c-span as public service alo with

these other television providers, giving you a front-row seat to democracy. >> next, officials from the transportation department, the american gas association and the american petroleum institute testifying on legislation to ensure the safe handling of pipelines and hazardous materials, the house transportation and infrastructure subcommittee hearing is two hours. >> the subcommittee on railroads pipelines and hazardous materials will come to order. without objection so ordered. i also ask unanimous consent that the members not on the subcommittee be permitted to sit

with the sub committed, without objection, so ordered. if members want to insert a document into the record please e-mail it to documentsti@mail.house.com. i would like to remember our colleague congressman payne jr. who passed away. it was privilege to work with donald on counterpart in is subcommittee. it was clear to all who knew him how strong his commitment to public service was and to his constituents. i'm grateful for the opportunity to have worked alongside donald especially with leadership putting together our bipartisan bipartisanline safety legislation. he will be deeply missed on the committee and i want to send condolences and prayers to family, friends, and staff as they deal with this great loss. i will recognize myself for the purpose of an opening statement for five minutes.

today's hear we will examine the need to reauthorize the pipeline and hazardous materials or fimsa including authority over emerging energy sources. this past fall myself chairman gray, ranking member larson and ranking member payne introduced hr6494 that promoted safety act in 2023 or the act of 2023. last december the committee passed hr6494 out of committee on a bipartisan basis. in crafting this bill the committee solicited input from a wide-range of parties and in turn received 90 priorities, 90 of them from members and over a hundred requests from pipeline safety stakeholders. i'm grateful for the support from members of this committee in putting together this important piece of bipartisan

legislation. .. do you know the bill contains several provisions to accomplish this including at authorization for additional pipeline safety technical experts to complete outstanding congressional mandates. over the past 20 years, more than 1400 excavation damage incidents have occurred.

hr 6494 includes measures to strengthen state programs, to reduce the number of excavation damage prevention incidents, promoting the public safety. the pipes active 2023 will also support efforts to oversee the safe transportation of new and emerging by directing to update regulations for the safe transportation of carbon dioxide of the study the use of hydrogen blending and natural gas. these and other provisions in the pipes active 2023 will ensure the safety and reliability of the united states a pipeline network in the transportation of our critical energy resources. it is more important than ever to receive a regular reauthorization from congress. this will provide the agency and regulated community much-needed certainty and federal pipeline safety policy and also provide legislative direction to

addressing pressing areas of concern and pipeline safety. i want to thank our witnesses for being here today and sharing their perspective on pipeline safety and what it means the industry and the communities where the transportation of our energy products take place. i will also note my colleagues on the house energy and commerce committee have also passed pipeline safety authorization legislation through committee based on their jurisdiction. despite such action in the house we have yet to see any movement in the senate from leader schumer and his majority as the house has showed it's possible to legislate in a bipartisan manner in the name of pipeline safety. i call on the senate to follow suit and i hope to work with them in the near future. i will yield back and now recognize ranking member wilson for five minutes for an opening statement.

>> thank you chair nehls for holding this hearing today. thank you ranking member larsen for your faith in me it is with a heavy heart that i take on the role of a ranking member of the subcommittee. congressman donald payne junior was not just a colleague but a cherished friend whose legacy i am dedicated to honoring and advancing. his exemplary leadership on the railroad subcommittee sets a standard of excellence that i am committed to upholding and building upon. for many years we were soldiers in the army to uplift black men and boys whether that be trayvon martin, or fighting for health disparities among black men and boys. he fought the good fight to bring back our girls from

africa. i sat next to him in committee for years and we were table mates every year at the congressional black caucus he shared many memories with me. he was so proud to be the father of triplets and to let me know he married a florida girl. i will miss him and i am committed to honoring his legacy and continuing his work on this committee. as we all know, part of this mission was to ensure the safety of all people. he had a goal of never wanting to miss a boat regardless of his health. and speaking every day on the floor to honor his constituents. he loved his constituents he was a man for all seasons and we will miss him dearly. before coming to congress i was a school principal nothing is

more important the meath and the safety and education of our children. i do not want to see any pipeline incidents but i am particularly concerned when they occur at or near a school. at least two recent incidents in the last year happened at or near schools. one was near elementary school in conway, washington and another was at a school in the mississippi delta and marigold, mississippi. yes, believe it or not just last month and marigold there's a pipe glide explosion hayes cooper center pre-k through eighth grade school. although the children were injured to school staff members were injured and taken to the hospital for treatment i want to know how pipeline operators work with communities in schools to prevent such incident. are they working with the impacted schools for additional tutoring or student support for

this children's loss instruction time? what about their mental health? is having to evacuate impact student learning with regard to the pipes 2023 bill, i supported the bill because it has essential provisions that mr. payne champ cute and i associate myself with his work on these efforts. among them the bill includes increased funding for pipeline and hazardous materials safety administration to support the office of pipeline safety for its critical i am proud this bipartisan pipeline safety bill strongly focuses on pipeline safety. this bill also makes changes to the competitive academic agreement program to provide funding for academic research and develop the pipeline safety workforce of the future. the changes will help most

historically black colleges and universities and other minority serving institutions participate in the program. these are positive changes and network congress to adopt him. lastly i want to say to the mayor who is leading our city through the aftermath of this deadliest by plant explosion. the country experience it in 2023. thank you for watching today i'm so sorry for your loss. people died after showing up for work to make chocolate. ten people were injured and i understand your volunteer firefighting capacity you also showed up to help with the immediate emergency response. we hear you, we see you, and we will never forget. i look forward to hearing from our witnesses today i yield back

my time there quickly gentle lady yields. i don't recognize ranking member of the full committee mr. larson for five minutes in for an opening statement reflects thank you chair nehls for calling this hearing on pipeline safety and for your kind words about our colleague and friend represented to don payne junior we continue to mourn today after his death three weeks ago he was the leader of the pipes active 2023 or committee voted unanimously to advance in december the strongly support ensuring pipeline safety programs have the funding they need to do their work. also helped lay the groundwork for strong rail funding in the bipartisan infrastructure law because at dawn's work you see replacement of century-old rail bridges and tunnels on the northeast corridor including projects. he was a friend and advocate for real workers supporting their bid for it cyclic, higher wages and improve working conditions. his efforts help support historic agreement that was strengthen the safety and quality of life for central rail

workers. dawn's work to gives rail safety legislation especially in the wake of the derailment in east palestinian or made an important part of his legacy that congress must continue to realize. june 10 , and elevate pipeline explosion in washington amid district claim the lives of 210-year-old boys in an 18-year-old young man. the explosion also asserted 37000 gallons of gasoline into a creek that flowed through in billingham. this explosion time spurred my commitment which has been the highest level pipeline safety. my entire tenure in congress fought to reduce the risk of pipe line incidents, promote transparency pipeline safety information for open communities and increase accountability for pipeline operators. according to data in the past 20 years there have been 12722 pie plate incidents claiming 278 lives and causing $11.4 billion and property damage. what will work on the pipes 2023

bill the pipeline industry continues to experience deadly accidents causing damage the environment. according to the pipeline safety trust, at 2023 was the deadliest year for pipelines in two decades. march 24, 2023 a pipe went pipelineexplosion a west readin, pennsylvania killed seven people, injured 11 displays threes families from a neighboring apartment building and evacuated many more from the area. november 23 as well third coast of the structure is 1.1 million gallons of crude oil from underwater pipeline into a quote unusually sensitive area. the gulf of mexico about 20 miles south of venice, louisiana. more recent generally 24 two homes less than a mile for each other in jackson, mississippi exploded three days apart from at most energy pipeline leaks. for some exposed results in one fatality one injury. resulting fire from the second explosion spread to neighboring

home. these incidents happened after identified leaks in the pie plate in the area but failed to repair them. putting safety first means good oversight and accountability for activities about pipeline operators means greater transparency for local communities in a public. pipes 2023 accomplishes this by creating office of public engagement idea championed by might washington state colleague. requires review operator emergency management response plans. improving safety means preventing incidents produced safety programs need the resources and staff to inspect pipelines, conduct investigations when incidents occur they can appropriate enforcement actions. pipes 2023 does this by increasing authorizations for for organizations and place our bill includes $56 million for state pipeline safety programs over four years. i appreciate each of our witnesses being here today to talk about the pipes active 2023.

went to welcome deputy minister brown who visited my district to tour the olympic pipeline site in billingham and bill of the pipeline safety trust organizations create a response about tragedy in my district in billingham. i also do thank them on the response or call might washington pipeline leak that happened last year cleanup continues bit nears the end for that addition to safety and should be ale. the first ever natural gas distribution infrastructure safety modernization grant program. as it is 5:30 $88 million one or 67 projects from the $1 billion made available to be supposing committee on utilities to repair or replace natural gas pipelines help reduce incidents and improve safety. pipelines play a critical role the nations of the structure. on the daily lives of americans. we are today too much national pipeline safely delivers energy across the country. look for to the discussion without a yield back.

especially garson yields. thank you sir welcome our witnesses and thank them for being here today brief elected take a moment to explain our system to our witnesses through lights in front of you i was the gringo, you'll be running out assignment read conclusion remarks please. asking of us consent the witnesses. it included in the record without objections ordered. as asking of us consent the record of today's hearing remain open until such time as our witnesses have provided answers to any questions that may be submitted to them in writing. without objections ordered. i also ask unanimous consent the record remain open for 15 days for any additional comments information committed by members or witnesses to be included in the record of today's hearing. without objections ordered. osha written testimonies member part of the wreck of the subcommittee asks you limit your oral arguments for five minutes.

mr. brown i appreciate handmade the book 2024 emergency response five-point to mangoes and first responders well done but have an issue before recognize you for a five-minute testament but the to take about a personal privilege without objections ordered. the committee notified your april 15 of 2024th, 21 days ago today's hearing was taking place. we also been asked for feedback on the pipes act are longer than that. when we come on a bipartisan basis re- asked for the straggly seventh that's is 90 days ago, three months yet you are unable to provide your written testimony to this committee in a timely fashion tonight all the members of the subcommittee the ability to adequately review your testimony. your agency is also unable to share feedback on the bill until last night after 10:00 p.m. i find it completely, completely unacceptable and inexcusable.

now, duty or delay on both fronts many members may have questions from the committee as well i what to make sure it expects a full answer. what a full answer from you to all members questions today. out also a queue to commit to respond to all members questions for the record. to give me a reasonable expectation here can you commit to providing an answer what to ask, three weeks? and give you number? >> as you may know both the ta and the testament goes through tointeragency review process whh does take time. i will commit to working as fast. >> to ask for three weeks come on give me an idea. >> okay were not here we go. i'll look forward to response as we are on the subcommittee are interested in what you have to share. you kanawha with the time, i look forward to a productive

hearing, i hope we can have a productive hearing. with that you are recognized for five minutes. go ahead sir. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thinking ranking member wilson. ranking member larsen, mc subcommittee for the invitation to discuss the pipeline safety as the work in the and the reauthorization legislation that you put together. i want to start by echoing the sentiments and condolences to the payne families those who are colleagues, those who are friends to the payne office and staff members who i know role as saturn is i was to learn of his passing. as a testament to his legacy he worked across the isle this past year to help advance legislation to improve pipeline safety. and to keep his constituents and all americans safe from hazardous materials, transportation. as i testified last to refer the subcommittee safety is and remains the top priority of the

department of transportation. specifically it's responsible for overseeing the safe transport of hazardous materials through pipelines and via other modes of transportation that's trucks, trains, planes, vessels, automobiles, drones among others. we were seated safety design operation and maintenance as chairman mentioned nearly 3.3 million miles of pipeline was built only one in 10 goods are classified as a hazardous material. transported commercially in the united states everything from nuclear waste to lithia and i am batteries to spacecraft being transported to spaceports around the united states and around the world. nearly two thirds of the energy we consume in the u.s. is transported via pipeline. over the past few decades especially the last few years in conjunction with america's red-hot economic growth, energy production in the united states has continued to increase to record levels. currently u.s. transportation of these products is necessarily

increased when exports of energy products have also reached record levels. this means heightened demand on our pipelines and refined a project storage infrastructure as well as export facilities, liquefied natural gas terminals, which we also regulate. the volume of work and the challenges in carrying out our safety and environmental mission have never been greater. aging infrastructure requires more maintenance and greater safety scrutiny. a significant portion of the cross-country pipeline infrastructure was built shortly after world war ii. meeting pipelines are over 80 years old there are even if you gas distribution segments installed during the civil war era. more than one or 50 years ago. which, thanks to the presidents presidentsbipartisan infrastruce are finally modernizing the first of its kind is that ranking member mention natural gas and modernization grant program that we stood up last year which included grants and multiple districts of multiple

members of the subcommittee. with increasing challenges and broader demands on our agency, the direction and resources from congress are important. in particular is to close out the final few congressional mandates in the 2020 pipes active. were grateful for the work the subcommittee has done in advancing bipartisan legislation including increased authorization levels. in closing i like to thank you again for the opportunity to discuss with you the critical issues facing our agency as well as our state partners and the largest most sophisticated pipeline system and transportation hazardous system in the world. each of the areas i outlined in the written testimony are areas in which the rest of the world looks to america for leadership. leadership in the marketplace of products for which we are the most efficient in the world in a leadership for establishing safety rules, countries around the world have told me they often adopt and fold to improve their own pipeline safety

environmental protection. leadership and the rule of law it comes to disputes in compliance. leadership in research, innovation and new technologies to improve safety and environmental performance that are sold domestically exported around the world but leadership and transparency and engagement with effective communities which other countries also looked to as a new standard. leadership inefficiencies for all the work that we do. this work as a result of our collaboration congressional committees that authorize and fund our agency as will the stakeholders represented here. most of the kudos for all the achievements of our agency go to the newly six and 50 full-time federal employees nearly 200 contractors that make up what i always say the most on song agency and the government. think of your efforts to advance bipartisan reauthorization legislation. i look forward to working with you and your colleagues as congress considers a pipeline safety reauthorization bill and honors the efforts of your

colleague mr. payne i look forward your questions. >> thank you, x your recognizer five minutes of your time. >> chairman nehls ranking member wilson and members of the subcommittee. i am chris unix senior vice president for safety operations, engineering and security at the american gas association. prior to ag eight worked in research and development at pipeline research council international and spent 12 years in public service working for the office pipeline safety. i get to officially retire next month after a 34 year career dedicated to pipeline safety. proud to have made a difference and i guess i should thank you all for this retirement gift of putting me in front of the hearing. thank you. represents more than 200 utilities that deliver natural gas is 74 million customers. natural gas pipelines develop

essential energy the 2.5 millioe system including two-point to local distribution system. operated by natural gas utilities. on the distribution pipeline the last critical link in the delivery chain that brings natural gas from the wellhead to the burner tip. basically members are the base of the industry they live in the communities they serve the interact daily with their customers and state regulators who oversee pipeline safety. and their customers are their neighbor, their family, and their friends of such pipeline safety is and must be our number one priority. the prime rate safety tool that gas distribution operators use is distribution integrity management program. it's a regulatory process that allows an operator to develop a safety plan that entrusts the unique operating characteristics

of the individual pipeline system and prioritizes the work to strengthen that particular system. upgrading distribution pipeline systems develops an important pipeline safety components. currently 43 states and the district of columbia have expedited pipeline replacement programs. in just the last 17 years, replaced program and have allowed operatives to reduce the amount of cast iron by over 50%. replacing those lines with plastic which will increase safety, reliability and methane release. natural gas distribution industry has proved it can simultaneously increase natural gas delivery and improve safety. but more needs to be done. believes the provisions within the committee passed bipartisan promoting innovation and powerpoint efficiency and safety the pipes active 2023 will substantially improve pipeline safety by limiting deaths,

serious injury, property damage and environmental impacts caused by unintended excavation damage. strengthening criminal penalties for those who sabotage an and intentionally damage pipeline operations. studying how natural gas blending distribution systems worldwide are safely operated. creating a voluntary information safety system to collect and share best practices and lessons learned while sit with sufficient legal and regulatory safe harbors. to guarantee participation and establishing a four-year reauthorization. so that the industry have sufficient time to complete work authorized in previous reauthorization's. while not in the bill aga strongly supports reading a regulatory process to identify technology alternatives that if utilized will be the intent of existing pipeline safety regulations and provide equal if

not greater levels of safety. its members support fact-based, reasonable practical updates to pipeline safety legislation that builds upon the lessons learned and the evolving technologies. and in that spirit looks forward to our continued work with this committee as well as the house and the commerce committee and the senate commerce committee to finalize pipeline safety reauthorization thank you for the opportunity to participate in this hearing of the forger questions. >> thank you. you are recognizer five minutes for oral testimony for. >> thank you chairman nehls ranking member larsen and members of the same way thank you for the opportunity to testify this variable exists or by offering my condolences on the loss of ranking member nehls my thoughts are with his family. my name is robin work on that vice president of policy american petroleum institute on behalf of api we appreciate the opportunity to testify as part of this important hearing

addressing pipeline safety the reauthorization of the department of transportation pipeline hazardous material administration every day our nation's network of more than 500,000 miles of transmission pipelines, transfers and oil natural gas refined product and low carbon energy that fuel american life. america's love the world to reducing carbon dioxide emissions over the past two decades, even as our industry is made the united states there were a leading producer of oil and natural gas. america's air is cleaner because of innovative improvements the way energy is produced, transported, or finding consumed but we need pragmatic bipartisan energy policy to support the regional develop of our nation's oil and natural gas resources include policymaking that includes investment critical energy infrastructure like pipelines. pipelines want to save his most environmentally responsible as a transfer energy to consumers in every u.s. state our industry is committed to zero incident safety culture. even as proslavery pipeline

miles continue to increase the strong safety record has improved. over the last five years total liquid pipeline incidents decreased 23% with 87 fewer incidents in 2023 compared to 2019 will incidents impacting people or the environment decreased 7%. we welcome effective policymaking to continue to build upon this progress and further improve pipeline safety. we applaud this committee's passage of a conference of bipartisan bill that promoting innovation pipeline efficiency and safety of 2023 the bill the committee passed in december of last year contains many important policy measures that apis confident will make our nation's pipeline network safer and more reliable. in particular we are pleased the bill requires to execute a more timely frequent review process for industry standards are incorporated by reference in defense regulations. there are more than six and 50 references to apa standards and federal regulation. the standards are revised and improved every five years at a minimum their api national

standard in situ accredited process regulator struggled to keep pace with the advances in pipeline safety technology and modern engineering practices that are regularly incorporated into the standards. today approximate 50% of the instance are out of date and do not reference the most recent addition. the pass is to ensure the response to industry standards update to maximize safety and short regulation keep pace with advances in engineering and technology. the bill also directs the secretary of transportation to the pipeline operators to establish a storage tank inspection frequency at risk based engineering principles, advance pipeline safety through the creation voluntary information sharing system, strengthens protection for pipeline infrastructure by criminalizing activities that cause defects in or disrupt operation of a pipeline. it encourages innovation and investment in a cleaner energy future law requiring two prominent rule makings for

pythons as well the safety of composited byte materials bill recognizes important conservation efforts pipeline operators have embraced. api believes this bill would make our nation pipeline safer more reliable but you know sure jurisdictions with other committees conversations on reauthorization are ongoing. we urge you can to advocate for the provisions i've mentioned but also to consider supporting language introduced by other committees i would reauthorize the technology pilot program and provide clarity as to what agency regulates implant piping and refineries. as if i don't matter our industry's acts and engage in a regulatory process to help a craft a workable findable leak protection repair ruled the initial proposal beyond the scope of what congress intended. we pressured the letter chairman graves and master raising many similar concerns minus we await the final rule i urge you to continue to conduct oversight of this process. this rulemaking demonstrates significance and impact of the reauthorization process we

appreciate the opportunity to participate in the discussion of the bill the table today. in closing let me stress pipeline safety is not a partisan issue when he effective legislation to meet the challenge of answering ever-growing energy demands of advancing safety in the lead in the world. api appreciates the opportunity to engage in space hearing in the committee's important work to advance a bipartisan pipeline safety bill. german nehls, ranking member's verbs this subcommittee this concludes my prepared statement i look forward to the conversation were going to have today. >> thank you you are wrecking us for five minutes your testimony. correct thank you chairman nehls rank member wilson, ranking member larsen, members of the subcommittee for inviting me too speak today. i also did take a moment to acknowledge the passing of ranking member nehls representative was a great leader with whom i felt likely to work. he'll be missed my heart was out to his family, friends, and colleagues.

2023 was the deadliest year for pipeline safety in america in at least a decade. as stated before the subcommittee that we were not making progress, i repeat that statement today. the total fatalities, incidents and significant incidents show statistically flat trend line with no real progress. i'd like to share a few stories of pipeline failures that highlight some of the roadblocks toward safer pipelines.

in washington we are planning along with the families of the three boys that he died in the pipeline tragedy almost 25 years ago a commemoration of that horrendous a day. a few months ago i made this planning the pipeline failed again this time, spilling 25,00t 500 feet from an elementary school. thank goodness it wasn't during school hours and didn't ignite. it was likely due to corrosion. over the past 20 years regulators and industry focused on reducing failures through integrity management and high consequence areas. this is sound. focus efforts were the most harm where it could occur by identifying all potential risks in those areas and mitigate those risks. unfortunately the programs did not seem to have lived up to their promise. incident rates within the areas are as high or higher than those outside. just last month the same carbon

dioxide pipeline that ruptured in mississippi and sent nearly since nearly50 people to the hon 2020 failed again. this time in louisiana. luckily this happened when residents who live less than 50e not home or this could have been another tragic story. it took dan where he now owned by exxon mobil more than two hours to arrive in a close the valves which is entirely too long. beyond the regulatory shortfalls of carbon dioxide pipelines which i included, this incident raises another important pipeline safety priority mitigation valves into the ability to close valves. they began calling for the mitigation valves in 1970 continuing with a formal recommendation after the pipeline tragedy in california in 2010. that recommendation remains open today because they are unable to require existing pipelines to upgrade their equipment due to congressional limitations. congress needs to require operators to install these in high consequence areas.

there've been many failures turned to tragedies by the inability to close them properly. just weeks after hearing on the pipeline safety before the subcommittee the explosion at a chocolate factory in reading pennsylvania killed seven people, hospitalized 11 according to a preliminary report, the point of failure is likely made from dupont plastic. they published a report highlighting problems with plastic services in 1988 since we listed the problematic components in the advisory bulletin in 2007. at what point do we go beyond the voluntary recommendations and make it illegal for the material to be part of the nation's pipelines. the common theme among the pipeline disasters lectured today is congress and the regulators leaving too much to voluntary or performance-based efforts. it's important to offer flexibility to enable leaders to make new advancements however they also need to ensure that

the entire industry is operating safe pipelines. please remember the 24v blue died from failure since the last time i testified before the subcommittee 14 months ago. think of the empty seats at the dinner table. i can tell you working with the families who lost their suns in 1999 the pain never goes away. thank you. >> thank you. i'd like to thank you all for your testimony. we will now turn to the panel for questions and i will recognize myself for five minutes. last december the committee passed the act of 2023 on a bipartisan basis which provides authorization and congressional direction for the federal policy. the authorization expired in september. can you briefly describe the effects on the lack of authorization and what benefits

does reauthorization provide, and i will start with you, deputy administrator and we will go down the panel. >> i will be brief to make sure you get to everybody. there's no direct effect but obviously having the requisite resources to oversee the additional product moving that we oversee and at the direction that we get every few years of what is most important to this body, the subcommittee and the larger chamber and a body of bof congress is very important to our work. >> in my opinion, not putting forward reauthorization actually limits in some regards. they are in a holding pattern waiting to see what occurs with legislation and i believe they are a little hesitant to move certain things forward until they get the whole direction of congress. there are some great things in

the reauthorization at least as the committee proposed that i truly believe will improve pipeline safety especially with regards to excavation damage prevention and additional grant funding that will incentivize states to enact leading practices. i think with the change of direction to continue its great role of moving pipeline safety forward, we are hoping soon. >> thank you. >> similarly, we hear from our members regularly that uncertainty is absolutely critical so they can make the investment they need and operate their businesses. having regular reauthorization is making sure they fulfill the obligations from past authorizations, provide that level so that our companies know where to invest and what kind of technologies to invest, what kind of practices so providing that certainty and clarity is critical to ensure we have the

reliability and efficiency customers expect. >> the reauthorization of the agency of course is important. i think what is more is the safety advancements made in that legislation more than the prompt reauthorization. >> the house did there will we had a bipartisan bill that's been sitting on chuck schumer's desk and he's done nothing with it and i don't know when he's going to do anything if at all. they seem to be very dysfunctional over there. so i would like to ask -- we talked a little bit about the pipes act of 2023 and you

mentioned a little bit about the reduce the excavation damage incident. talk about that. what is the impact on the gas distribution system? >> it's the leading cause, that and pipelines. if you look at the statistics, it's going the wrong direction. if i look at the 20 year trend for serious incidents, the 20 year trend at 24.6% of all being excavation damage. if i jump to the three year trend goes up to 28%. if i go to significant for 20 year trend it is 33.6%. if i jump to three years, it is now 42.4%. so for the distribution industry, our focus is how do we

reduce these incidences? i believe they've done a great job with helping to create the common ground alliance and implementing a call before you dig and providing grants, but it's not enough so we really need some additional incentives for states to adopt leading practices and then honestly, we need really good enforcement of the state level for those that aren't, where it's cheaper for them to hit the pipeline instead of calling. >> i agree and i think that the act of 2023 addresses some of those issues. >> i yield back and recognize the ranking member for five minutes of questions. >> thank you. do you think pipeline operators are doing a good job supporting the communities where there are accidents and incidences?

>> no operator once there pipeline to fail, so nothing is intentional, but i think when we look at the long-term trend as i mentioned in my opening remarks on fatalities, total incidences and the fact the trendlines are statistically flat, i don't think we are making sufficient progress keeping our communities safe. >> do you know how they engage with schools and other members of the public? >> yes. public engagement has been an area where the industry, the regulators that have fallen a bit short, but there has been progress made recently. there's been a new recommended progress on public engagement that was put together by a working group and it's just

recently been adopted and it outlines some great best practices for operators to share information and how to engage with the people around the pipeline, with schools and everyone affected by the pipelines. i hope that operators will incorporate that and that we will see an improvement in public engagement, but right now i think we are seeing a lot of for public engagement across the industry. >> the national transportation safety board identifies that is a tragic pipeline explosion in reading pennsylvania there was an older service erroneously made from material that identified in the corporate limits history. is this the way of saying

pipeline operators should get rid of pipelines with that material? >> yes. but it is a voluntary advisory bulletin, and it was also recently incorporated into a proposed rule on the distribution systems to look at the programmatic the distribution management, but again that is performance-based and leaving it up to operators so there's been a lot of encouragement to find and remove them, but it has not been mandatory. >> do you know what operators would do using this material and what have they done about it? >> i think operators have been looking for it. this product was installed in pipelines many decades ago and

record-keeping may not have been what it is required to be now. so there is a challenge in finding every instance of this service team in the system, but i believe it is the operator's ability to find and remove it. >> mr. brown, he outlined the devastating impact of the loss of life on pipeline incidents and accidents. what is the economic impact to communities where there are pipeline accidents and incidences? i am particularly thinking of west reading where the chocolate factory was one of the largest employers. that loss would have a severe long-term economic impact to the community. what is the economic impact? >> i know everybody here has seen the tragedy that can occur

like the one that you've referenced. the impact can be of course first and foremost of the impact on families and loved ones and community members. i was in jackson mississippi with congressman thompson meeting with of the community there that was affected by a tragic fatality. there's a lot of concern, and people wonder if there systems are safe. the impacts are myriad so i applaud the committee's work trying to identify those impacts. certainly when we see a loss of a system that people rely on for energy, there are many direct and indirect impacts. >> thank you. i yield back. >> the gentlelady yields. i recognize my colleague from the great state of texas. >> thank you very much,

mr. chairman. i want to thank the witnesses for being here. deputy administrator brown, they are far behind schedule and completing the pipeline rulemaking which as you know as required by congress to be promulgated by the end of december, 2022. they shouldn't continue to regulate the pipelines the same. idle pipes do not carry hazardous materials, as you know. they are disconnected from sources that allow for transporting hazardous material. so the regulation should be appropriately tailored to reflect the reduced risk of incident regulating the pipeline the same as active pipelines means they are directing precious resources here when the funds could be better used for other regulations. so, you joined us, administrator brown, for a hearing on

reauthorization last year and in your responses to questions for the record you indicated they intend to issue a proposed rule in the first quarter of this year. this has come and gone. i ask you why have they still not completed this rule? is there an updated timeline for completion that you might be able to share with us? >> at the committee's direction, congresses direction we operate on a monthly basis all of the rulemaking from the 2020 act i believe that one is slated for later this year. i will be perfectly honest with you though, you gave 36 mandates in the last reauthorization bill that's compared to 19 in the previous reauthorization bill, so we had almost doubled the number of directives from you and we continue to triage with the highest safety impact to reduce the safety risk to the american people first. so that one is on the list of priorities, it is just lower

than the high-risk rulings we are working through. >> would you elaborate on the impact of the idle rule on the industry and is having on the industry? >> we have been very vocal and you've heard quite a bit about the challenges associated with permitting for the new pipelines even doing some work on existing pipelines. those permitting challenges are not going away. this being able to right now there are two categories as you've pointed out, active and abandoned and it has to be pulled out. getting the classification would allow companies to leave the pipe in the ground so they can come back and use it together from a safety perspective they purge the line and clean it, fill it with gas so it rests harmless and is monitored but it doesn't take the same required resources that you pointed out earlier but if we are going to continue to operate the infrastructure in the country without building more, then we will need all of the pipe that we've got. >> one more question for you,

mr. brown. in the 2020 pipes act, congress mandated safety regulations governing large-scale export facilities. last time you appeared before us here at the committee, you mentioned that it was a high priority get the proposed rule still hasn't been released yet. again, timeliness seems to be a problem. why have they still not completed this rule and what is the status of the regulation? >> i would echo my answer and add to that in your home state, we had one of the largest exporters of lng experience a 400-foot high fireball, an explosion at the facility. luckily no one was killed. we want to learn what went wrong and include it in the updates and that is part of the reason we are continuing our investigation into that incident. we want to include of the lessons learned in that

rulemaking. >> as you know they may reimburse states for up to 80% of costs incurred and emperors enforcepipeline safety laws and regulations. given the leading state in terms of total pipeline miles, we are spending more than any other state to meet the safety standards. unfortunately, texas is receiving significantly less than the authorized 80% reimbursement. i want to put this on your radar as an issue if you are not already aware of it i also would like to encourage the team to work with both the railroad commission of texas and the subcommittee, myself and the chairman to ensure we can get this done for the long-term solution that doesn't leave the nation's number one producer in a unstable situation. if you can get in touch with of the team and send the requested information about the things i've asked i would appreciate

it. it. >> thank you to congress just a few weeks ago there was a big boost for the program grants. so, thank you for that. >> i now recognize a valued member of the subcommittee for five minutes. >> thank you very much mr. chairman. back in may of 2018 in the valley, holmes just started exploding across several towns. the gas pipeline was over a pressurized, dramatically over pressurized and explosions started coming out of people's houses. in 18-year-old was killed and i worked with my massachusetts colleagues to update the

pipeline regulations. my colleague made the same point why is it taking so long to get the rules finalized. why the delay? >> we follow the administrative procedure act and also follow the statutes that govern us which includes an additional advisory committee review which includes five public-interest representatives, industry representatives, government representatives. that takes an extra many months to work through the highly technical issues involved in these regulations. the other thing is we regulate the thousands of operators with unique systems so creating a one-size-fits-all is very difficult and it usually means we end up in the courts because one entity doesn't like how we are directing the operators to

operate. so those are just a few of the challenges we have. but the obvious one is resources when we started off with two regulatory attorneys working on rules like the one you directed us to do, congressman. we doubled that as soon as possible administration took office and we set a record number of rules in the first year that we got here but there's still a backlog so we appreciate the support for additional resources for additional rulemaking team members. >> the last reauthorization included a provision requiring the secretary of transportation to submit a report to congress about the need for an independent pipeline testing facility under dot. my understanding is pipelines are the only mode of transportation that does not have a dedicated research testing valuation facility. have they finalized the report

and do you know when it will be delivered to congress? >> we are part of the way through on the report and it has not been finalized. we do fund nonprofits that do some of the pipeline research testing through the funds you authorized as well. >> can you give us any idea what the timeline is bucks it doesn't sound encouraging. >> i would suggest a matter of months. we have had discussions with folks on both sides of the aisle. i think there's a varying interest in the subject of creating a facility. but we look forward to getting you that report. can you give us some indication of the findings and recommendations will be? >> i've not seen them addressed yet. >> would be glad to provide an update as soon as we can. >> integrity management programs are the primary tool the

pipeline operators used to ensure the safety of their pipelines. does this work as a good system? >> we've got thousands of operators and it's certainly working well with some and not well with others, so coupled with the push for safety management systems we are challenging presumptions and where risk media. there's a lot of promise and we welcome the constructive criticism of where it might not be working. that is fundamental to the safety management system if they are always looking for what are we missing here and with integrity management, because the systems are so different it is hard to write a single rule, prescriptive rule for the disparate systems across the country. >> do you feel it is the right approach or should we be taking an entirely different approach? >> i would say all of that is

one approach that we have but we are investing in research. we issue safety advisories, the issue directives, emergency orders. so i think there's promise. it's what i think the rest of the world does use a lot of this similar non-prescriptive scheme but we want to use any tool in our toolbelt to address the safety risks. >> thank you and i yield back. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. brown, with regards to the detection and repair, when will the agency released the final rule do you anticipate? >> our monthly update suggests by the end of the year. >> will the white house be involved in reviewing this rule? >> in the agency process every agency will have an opportunity to provide feedback in doing that.

in the proposal stage, there's minimal involvement. really the input comes at the advisory committee stage where we've got input from a lot of the stakeholders here to try to build consensus around that rule that we have largely been able to do. >> is the agency working to harmonize this rule with methane regulations since there will be overlapping requirements? >> we did that at the proposed rule stage. sometimes they don't align perfectly from the time standpoint you have a proposed rule you might be waiting on but you are waiting for another to propose their rule, so we are harmonizing to try to minimize and overlap between the agency. >> is it the position of the agency that all leaks are hazardous? >> i was just in jackson mississippi where a nonhazardous leak resulted in the death so we

are highly concerned about the potential for a nonhazardous leak to become hazardous, but not all nonhazardous leaks are hazardous. >> in your written testimony, you highlight concerns that the industry has with the detection and others proposed rulemaking. specifically i note that your testimony explained it exceeded the scope of the language in section 113 of the 2020 pipes act. can you elaborate on that? >> the proposed rule went beyond what congress mandated and specifically going into the gathering lines and the facilities and those two particular areas and then consequentially by doing that for the gathering lines, you are pulling in areas that would then dilute someone mentioned the comment, concern earlier about diluting the limited resources. that would certainly do it and there's a potential of missing more densely populated areas.

>> may i address that question? i just want to add at the advisory committee meeting just last month, there was a unanimous vote on the conclusion of those gathering lines that included the industry vote and with a lot of nuance around how that would impact those lines. >> for all its rulemaking any comment on how you think that would play out? i think we would disagree on the overlap that would look at concentration thresholds so there's conflict there but if you add in the low threshold it would effectively remove a lot

of the opportunities they use to maintain and a book for these so effectively they have to walk the line with handheld readers and then those rural gathering lines that is an extra cost and burden there and i don't know that the cost benefit analysis looked at the safety and environmental benefits associated with items such as this. with that, i will yield back. >> we now recognize mr. garcia for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman and ranking member for holding this important and timely hearing. i want to take a moment to recognize the passing of the former ranking member of the subcommittee, congressman payne. i hold the utmost respect for him and his leadership displayed time and time over the years.

he will be missed. moving to the topic of today's hearing, we have heard from my colleagues about the importance of pipeline safety. indeed, safety should be the number one priority when transporting materials backfield that can be deadly if improperly managed, and that is exactly what we should be concerned about as we look to the future especially as the industry looks to dramatically expand the network of carbon dioxide pipelines. american petroleum lists in the testimony the safety of pipelines. your testimony states that the industry, quote, has been operating pipelines safety for more than four decades with no fatality but the pipeline rupture cost 45 people to be hospitalized from co2 poisoning where people lay on the ground

shaking and unable to breathe. it was lucky that this tragedy didn't and worse. yes or no, does that sound safe to you? >> there are certainly risks associated with that as a tragic incident. that is an incident that we would like to avoid. i would like to go into more detail that you asked for yes or no. >> let me give another example. just a month ago in louisiana an estimated 107,000 gallons leaked from a pipeline owned by exxon mobil. local police and firefighters could do nothing than wait for the pipelines owner to repair it. it took more than two hours to repair and many residents were not notified. yes or no does that sound safe? >> the incident occurred but

that doesn't necessarily mean the pipeline wasn't a safe. >> my final question, how much does co2 pipeline developers stand to profit from these pipelines? >> i am not in the position to answer that. you would have to ask those individual operators. >> since you're not sure, i will tell you that in the midwest, carbon solutions, the largest proposed network of co2 pipes in the nation could be eligible for up to $18 billion in tax benefits for their project. that is just one company. it is apparent that there are dangerous gaps and federal in federalregulations that keepe safe and huge economic motivations the companies that want to see these pipelines build. leak notification systems, detection and emergency

responses plan are nowhere near build out. we shouldn't be putting a moratorium on all co2 pipelines until we can ensure people, especially the ones and vulnerable communities where thieves are -- where they will be protected. >> thank you and i yield back. >> the gentleman yields and i recognize you for five minutes. >> thank you mr. chair. the rule allows pipeline companies to employ modern inspection technologies to improve the safety of the existing pipelines. when population changes occur nearby instead of outdated expense or environmentally unhelpful, we talked about the gas pipeline advisory committee that convened a meeting on class location and was voting overwhelmingly within 12 months. can you commit to holding the next meeting on the class location before march of 2025?

>> we were able to hold that meeting, congressman, a few weeks ago. and we completed the work on that rule. >> thank you. so, how many barrels of oil do we produce annually in minnesota? >> i'm not familiar with the state level of that. >> zero. i just want to share with you something that concerns me. how many total? >> 33 million. >> how many miles of those pipelines are involving oil and gas? >> involve oil and gas, roughly 3 million. >> total? >> total. so if the biden administration gets their way of removing oil and gas industry would that be

down to zero pipelines then? >> i'm not sure i follow. could you repeat the question. >> if the biden administration gets their way of removing the oil and gas industry in the united states, would we be down to zero pipelines? >> i'm not familiar with any proposal to do such a thing. in fact the number of pipelines has increased i believe 17% in the transmission space over just the last few years. 13% overall in just the last few years. and then with record investments in emerging technologies, hydrogen, co2, there is there's potentially a continued expansion. >> you have a very impressive background, so what you say that technology in the pipeline safety and enhancements have done very well in the last ten years? >> absolutely. the technologies are incredible.

>> congratulations on her retirement. this may be one of your last meetings but thank you for the service and knowledge. would you agree there is a bipartisan issue and would you agree the technology involving the safety in the pipelines has greatly been enhanced in the last ten years? >> a greatly enhanced over the decades i've been in service. >> yes, sir, by leaps and bounds. >> yes. there's been a lot of great technological advancements in the pipeline safety. >> one of the concerns i have is we always talk about pipeline safety on both sides of the aisle, and we have what i would say is unlawful people trying to damage pipelines and what have

you. as everybody on the panel agree that those calls union members to be in danger and do you all agree that they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law because of the danger that they are putting us in? mr. brown, we will go right down the line. >> those who threaten or damage pipelines should be prosecuted. >> to the full extent of the law? >> to the full extent of the law. >> absolutely agree. >> we would absolutely agree, sir. we don't support any creation of an unsafe condition like that on the pipeline. >> thank you very much and i just want to thank you all for coming and sharing your testimony. being on the full committee, this really a lot of these issues are bipartisan, and i think that we need to recognize

the safety issue that affects us all and i'm really thankful that the chairman brought this meeting together today to talk about the safety issues is the number one issue that we are discussing today. thank you for your leadership and i yield back. >> when we passed here it does strengthen the penalties for those that want to create that act in the pipeline, so the gentleman yields and i now recognize mr. huffman for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman, and i want to thank the witnesses in particular for speaking some important truths about the inherent dangers and risks of this spiderweb of combustible infrastructure that we rely on to power the economy. i think there is too much fossil fuel business as usual in this country, certainly in this

conversation about continuing to build out the system that is frankly a disaster waiting to happen every day, and it does happen just about every day. i heard about a fireball at a facility just now that i had never heard about before. it pretty much doesn't even make news because it is just the cost of fossil fuel business as usual that we have come to accept. i feel like by passing a bill that doesn't do nearly enough to acknowledge this, much less to do something about it, we are sleepwalking further into the climate crisis and a further and further into tragedies and disasters. now you don't have to look far to find examples of this over the last four years the keystone pipeline is at 22 oil spills including two large spills between 2017 and 2019 and then again in 2022. it's an estimated 14,000 barrels in nebraska and because of these issues, the issued a report in

july of 21 regarding keystone pipeline safety record that included a shocking revelation the keystone with this terrible record was not an outlier. it is about the same safety level on average as pipelines all over the country. this taken with the testimony showing 2023 was the deadliest year for pipeline safety in america in 20 years should be a red flag. it is a sign of how concerned we should be by the state of our pipeline infrastructure and especially this increased buildout that we are sleepwalking towards in this committee and in this congress. now sadly and another example of the significant threat pipelines pose can be seen with that the failure of the coast pipeline in 2020. it's dangerous levels of co2 and when it ruptured it just a few minutes for the residence to feel the effects. fifty went to the hospital and

some are still suffering significant effect us today. these accidents and failures are not outliers. we are continuing to see the same problems for the same entities. just last month there was another co2 pipeline owned biden very this time in louisiana. so, mr. brown after that co2 pipeline disaster, they found dan barry made a lot of significant mistakes underestimated the effect of the area, inadequate monitoring, took too long to notify officials. one would hope it would have been closely monitored and scrutinized to make sure that these findings were correct, but sadly it appears many of the same failures of here with the sulfur louisiana leak. accordingly then mary was not aware. it took hours to arrive on scene and if it occurred when residents were in the area during the day, it could have

been catastrophic. are there any lessons learned now that they are by exxon mobil of course to correct and in reviewing the aftermath now of the second incident in louisiana, which of the these seem to have gone unaddressed? >> i can note that there are numerous directives we provided after the first incident and we are still in the investigative phase which can take some time. we also pride of those lessons learned that i know you asked me last time i was here about a proposed rule that we hope to have out in the next few weeks to create the strongest standards for the pipeline. >> i think we all look forward to seeing that rule. we have about 5,000 miles of the co2 pipelines right now most of it in rural areas when something terrible happens as it will continue to do. we've not yet seen major

population centers affected. however, there is tremendous pressure now to build out this network. i think it is inevitable that incidences are coming to more populated areas in the near future and this committee unfortunately is sleepwalking into that. with all the pipelines not only worsening the climate crisis but taking these tragedies we haven't even talked about the blending of hydrogen and the natural gas pipelines. i don't have time to go into it, but there's far more that needs to be talked about and interest and we need to be worried about it and the committee if we are going to be serious about pipeline safety and with that i will yield back. >> mr. johnson of south dakota. >> thanks mr. chairman. mr. brown, as you know, the act of 2020 implemented a new technology pilot program. this was to allow people to try

out technological innovations and increase safety. i could imagine all kinds of situations where in-line inspection or leak detection innovation we would want those brought to market or to the field rather. when you were here last i thought we had a good productive conversation. i just want to pick up where we left off. it's my understanding we still don't have somebody utilizing that pilot program. so, have you all had any applications? >> thank you for your constructive question and a directive to work together. we have some constructive discussions after that with stakeholders. the goal is to get them to produce environmental benefits. we have laws that still apply to us unless you tell us they don't, to consider environmental benefits. as far as i've heard there's no interest in avoiding consideration of the benefits.

everybody wants that because new technologies tend to produce environmental benefits, so it is making sure it is in line and to consider those environmental -- >> do we have any applicants to use the pilot program? >> the program hasn't changed. we sought feedback from the public. we didn't get feedback from the public but we did get feedback in this committee that said from stakeholders we don't find this sufficient because we have to consider the environmental policy analysis and the utilization of the program and so we are just discussing is there another way to consider those environmental impacts so we can more quickly adapt technologies. we are glad to work with you to address them. >> so you're saying the pilot program as currently outlined in law does not provide any meaningful benefits to operators? >> nobody has used it yet, correct. >> we know that there are these

innovations. presumably we would want to test them in the field is so we can he canget good data about their efficacy. how do we get that done if not through this pilot program? >> i would leave it up to some of my colleagues here to answer but our goal is the same as you have. we don't want to just use the american people as guinea pigs. we want to make sure there's an equivalent level of safety and that there are not new and environmental costs to the public. i think everybody is on the same page of what we are trying to get at into the question is just how to do it. >> it's great we have this panel of experts, and i will go to you next to get a sense from you. if they do exist, how best to do we deploy them in a matter as the deputy administrator said. but how do we get that done? you said that is the question. that's the question i'm asking.

>> you demonstrate an equivalent level of safety and we could issue a special permit that would allow you to deviate from certain standards or regulations. so there's actually a current way to do it and congress provides a third way which is this pilot program, but using the pilot program you still have to analyze the potential environmental impacts into the question was do you have to analyze those environmental impacts and i think we heard in the testimony you don't have to evaluate the impact. i think most of your members said we want positive environmental. >> you talk about people making these filings to be able to get clearance to put in place a new practice. how common are those filings? >> they vary widely. >> what they be monthly, quarterly, annually? >> for specific technologies, they are not frequent.

>> i think right now the way the program is designed as too onerous and cumbersome for companies to participate so if we are going to be able to bring these technologies into the testing phase as you've identified, i think we are going to have to provide a pathway to deviate away from the special permit process so we don't get bogged down with some of the other procedural processes that they currently have with the program. >> i would say this and thank you for the colloquy, but the deputy administrator, for four years congress has been saying that they want these new technologies brought to bear so we can get a safer and better system. the fact that for four years they haven't figured out a way to work with partners to get that done, obviously it means we have work to do and i guess i would ask for urgency in the agency and within the hill for us to get that done and with

that i would yield back. >> you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chair and to all the witnesses for being here today. before i begin, i just want to add my voice to those who mourn the loss of the congressman. he was a tremendous leader on the subcommittee and also for all things new jersey. my prayers are with him and his family. my first question, pipeline safety technology is continually adapting, improving however sometimes it takes a while to allow new technologies to be used. what technologies have you seen to getting it afloat? >> i think we just discussed some of them in the current program it's unbelievably

burdensome. the other issue that iac is when a new technology comes to the market and is proven but isn't allowed to do to the current dut regulations, let me explain and i will give you an example. so, right now do they require and operator or a device and a meter to protect that peter and that was appropriate in the 70s when the regulations were created. however the reason that was put in place is if the meter was hit it doesn't really, you don't want gas to be released. we now have these breakaway technologies that it immediately shuts off the flow of gas. about an operator can't use that technology because the current regulation requires an obstacle to be put in place to protect

it. >> deputy administrator, 2020 to issue safety regulations and pipelines considered in an idle pipeline status. the pipes act of 23 follows up on this mandate to inquire the completion within 180 days. what is the status of this regulation and when do they anticipate this? >> we provide monthly updates and i believe the status on that one is slated for the end of the year but as i stated earlier, we have more rules than we have

people working on them and we had twice the number of directives so the additional resources in the bipartisan legislation would be very helpful to helping us get that rule completed. >> do you believe that pipeline will increase the pipeline safety? >> i think we had some good commentary to address that. i can't really comment on a rule we haven't written yet. we have to lay off that justification. >> the pipes act of 2023 includes authorization of a voluntary information sharing system. in your perspective, how much participation would a system

seek? >> proper information protections providing a system where companies can submit information. i believe companies would actively participate and this committee was bias to design a program that was modeled after programs like that program that exists for pilots so i think you would get good participation. >> was pipeline safety outcomes are established and operational? -- data so that as an industry if we are working with of the regulator we can monitor trends but also look at individual reporting data.

mr. menendez for five minutes. >> thank you, chairman. i want to join my colleagues in mourning the loss. he wasn't just a colleague and friend, he was a mentor and a big brother in this institution and i will miss him dearly and i trust that our colleague will do an incredible job picking up the torch and carrying it forward as we strive to do on the work my friend had done for so long today marks three years since the ransom where attack on the pipeline. this led to be temporary disruption in the delivery of gasoline and other products

across large swaths of the country. the cyber attacks continued to become more sophisticated and the need for the effort to reimburse the government in key assets cyber security remains a top priority. particularly interested in the topic with cybersecurity subcommittee's on the homeland security. can you discuss how cyber attacks impact the pipeline network, the safety of the pipelines and security of the country overall? >> i will say cybersecurity i think poses more of a risk to reliability than safety but thatthere are issues that play y anytime a system is taken by somebody outside of the elaborate on the component. >> i think they could speak to it better than i could.

>> and expanding on that how can congress ensure the nation's pipeline network specifically with respect to cybersecurity? >> there's a lot of best practices out there and then the agency is doing that kind of work. again it is beyond the scope of the trust to work a lot on cybersecurity, but it does as i mentioned poses safety risks and so we are concerned. but i believe there's agencies out there outlining best practices and we hope that they are regulated in that way. >> before you testified, the coordination with other agencies to address cyber threats you mentioned they were seeking to hire experts despite the jurisdiction over cybersecurity. how is that process going in terms of onboarding, hiring cybersecurity experts?

>> we do train and engage the senior leaders level for the leadership as well as the pipeline. we don't have specific authorization so it may be something worth considering for the committee to hire enough space. that is something we would like to continue to make sure we are on top of even though we don't have the jurisdiction of cybersecurity, and obviously the nexus is a cyber incident can affect operations or have the potential to so as you mentioned the incident, that is what we were most worried about both on the start up with a restart of the pipeline as well as in the current when a pipeline is already operating in that case they voluntarily shut down. so we provided that training and provide input on their directives and we just want to

continue to work as closely as possible. glad to work with you if that is something as you consider the reauthorization. >> any additional steps? the control room managements have robust engagements post. thank you and i will yield back. >> mr. burchett for five minutes. >> thank you mr. chairman. and i tell you, miss our friend who passed away. i always enjoyed. i told him multiple times if i had his wardrobe i would have burned fine. you will be missed. mr. brown, would you agree

pipelines are the safest mode of transportation for natural gas and petroleum projects? >> when you factor in the volume of product moved, i would say so. the discussion here today involved a lot of tragic incidences so for those individuals it certainly is not when you just talk about in the context of the volume. >> overall it is an immense number that is moved. would you agree that the pipelines provide a lot of jobs and opportunities for some very hard-working americans? >> a lot of jobs associated in the pipeline sector. >> and it's hard work. it's not an easy kind of thing. what do you agree with that? they shut the door on me. would you agree that this is very hard work? >> it is very hard work and we've got the best workers in

the world. >> according to a liquid energy pipeline association the pipelines are the most environmentally protected way to deliver energy. did you or anyone tell president biden this was an unwise decision? >> i didn't have any involvement. >> would you say it's not your responsibility? >> we don't have any jurisdiction in that space. >> according to the website you serve on president biden's carbon dioxide capture task force. moving forward when the federal government makes decisions regarding liquefied natural gas,

i hope we put american people first and not these ridiculous climate initiatives. thank you mr. chairman. i will yield back two minutes and 34 seconds. please use it wisely. starting with mr. brown and transition to anyone else who would like to. a good segue from my colleague in the context of the times changing i represent an area that is dense in terms of hazardous materials in the proximities of one of the few deepwater ports, so it's changing. a lot of it is because of the policy in california that i fully support but we don't focus as much collectively.

of those refineries there are now five to shut down for an extended period of time and as the standard continues to be implemented into the market changes for the product how do we work with a private sector and to your point about resources and transparency how do we make the numbers as transparent as possible in the oversight so we are more efficient as we look at the marketplace change. we are leaving the country, we are proud of that, it's more efficient even separate from the issues of the damage.

how does your agency -- and we have a diverse panel to talk about that, but being fairly agnostic as to what my colleague was talking about and being driven by evidence-based research how we transition consistent with state statute and again if you look at the area that i represent there are hazardous materials pipelines all over and compared to rail and truck transport a lot of think they will be producing hydrogen for decades. with the transition seems to me if we get it right transparent and everyone could follow it, but if we don't, there's good to be risk to the.

they have certain advantages in their access to raw material. how do they look at the comparisons in terms of transport? we get a lot of the fuel still from the north slope which is specific to that product going into the plant and coming out. >> the transparency is critical at this stage and the agent of data where there's just so much that didn't exist years ago, so voluntarily sharing that information is something the agency tries to do. we try to report on our website

provide direct data so the academics or the public can engage. as part of the reauthorization legislation, the voluntary information system. other operators can learn from that. i know this seems the organization provides an audit of companies voluntarily, but basically opening the books and sharing information and acknowledging where.

the pay relationship we have changed more in the latter. >> we very much view ourselves as a part of the solution for technological advances. i tried to show that the regular engagement, transparency, whatever they can. i think you appropriately identify that the interaction between. we have to make sure that we recognize that. the infrastructure has been intertwined and so the coordination between the states is critical as well.

to share the data as it relates to safety concerns, one thing we were able to include in the reauthorization from this body and i'm -- the house produced in outcome and we are waiting on the senate to take action which for many of us is not only concerning but it's a consistent waste. to help draft this would allow and encourage the safety that --

>> the system as we discussed a little bit earlier was going to be incredibly valuable if designed appropriately and what, i mean, by that is so far as information submitted to the agencies are protected, then the information is used in a manner where it would allow companies a level of comfort that information there is no reach back authority in a punitive fashion then you would get grade participation or two normally look at trends but identify so we can share the lessons more broadly across the industry. it's evaluated by the government industry and manufacturers and we create a status report about

three times a year showing. it now gives you this information to improve safety. on the other hand if it is done incorrectly, if there's fines and penalties for the submission. >> another provision i drafted and we were able to secure in the reauthorization with my colleague to create a study on how operators can use composite.

composite pipes have been used for decades now for repair jobs et cetera so that piece of technology in particularwhy some of the restrictions for the pipeline and the distribution via pipeline is probably not the best policy. >> i'm sorry, could you repeat

the question. >> rather than, so rulemaking limit and of course there are those who oppose through the transport options usually leads to higher greenhouse gas emissions. as referenced earlier, i think one thing that gets missed in the data is how devastating failure. i think that needs to be taken into account. my organization works hard to ensure the safety of pipelines that are in the ground and making sure that the pipeline

that's in somebody's backyard is the safest possible and the community around it can not live in fear of a failure. >> thank you mr. chairman and thank you for being here today. i want to follow up on the question i want to make sure i understand our pipelines the safest mode of transportation when compared to other modes? >> sort of a complicated question but as far as the fewest number of incidences or if you look at the volume, yes.

but the severity of the incident can be tragic. i want to make sure i understand my reading of the research council's evaluation that compared to truck and a train td barge and everything. we should never stop. do you believe they use oil and gas? >> i'm not sure i understand how they will sit here and talk about pipelines and this evil whenever their state uses it the sign shows it is the safest mode of transportation. we need to continue striving using technology to get better

and better at safety and perfecting this, but let's compare this to alternatives i was just looking i pulled up an article for the city of new york according to the fire department in 2023, lithium ion batteries caused fires, 150 injuries and 18 deaths. that is just in new york, just in 2023. we can't sit here and pretend like by stopping pipelines there are these alternatives that are that much better. that doesn't even include the fact many that my friends from california are talking about. i think we need to be very thoughtful and careful about pretending as though there are all of these others safer better options. instead, focus on what math and science shows are the safest

options and make sure we continue to learn from successes and failures and is that fair? >> that's what our agency does because we regulate the materials. >> thank you i appreciate it. i would like to ask you a question. they haven't made the changes ie class regulations over 50 years. can you talk about perhaps some updates or modernization could result in actual better safety outcomes? >> the class location rules or the way they are denied in the fashion says once the population reaches the companies automatically have to pull the pipelines out regardless of whether they are safe or need to be pulled out.

if we can avoid doing work where we don't have to particularly if we can use existing technologies and spend hundreds of millions we can divert. it's the same amount of 10,000 homes use. can you talk about the regulation as opposed to those?

>> when the statute was originally created, it gave the authority to the pipelines. to have the same authority. >> we are seeing the regional managers exercise jurisdiction whenever the headquarters -- >> and some confusion in the industry. >> i am concerned about some of the deadlines in the law. i don't think your agency has the discretion to determine when they are going to complete something. our citizens don't have the ability to decide and i think we need to work on better strategies to comply. i will yield back.

>> mr. johnson for five minutes. >> thank you mr. chairman for holding this important hearing and thank you to the witnesses for appearing today. hazardous materials in areas that can become public emergencies in the pipeline failure. some are not made aware of pipelines until something goes wrong. what obligation do the pipeline operators have to inform the public about location and likely risk pipelines?

we updated those working on further updates as well and something they've stayed very focused on for the reasons you've mentioned. >> are pipeline operators required to hold public meetings? >> when they don't have the information they are, we've tried to provide information that we have but of course we don't operate the pipeline. we only oversee the operations and so when there is an incident that affects the community, that they should communicate to the community and give a chance to ask those type questions.

>> focusing on the pipelines that are currently in use and the new pipelines required for hydrogen and carbon dioxide. the bill asks for a study by the government accountability office on the need and ability to create an emergency alert system in the event of pipeline accidents. what information is needed for first responders when responding to a pipeline incident? >> the product that was in the pipeline that failed which homes and places could be impacted, what kind of emergency efforts are best is it shelter in place, and i think the need for such a system is may be more by co2 pipelines because they can move

so far away after the failure, because sometimes people should and it's not a kind of one-size-fits-all. the weather affect us what direction it could move and things like that. >> is the information needed by first responders that you just outlined, is that information always readily available and where is it obtained? >> it's not always readily available. some of the information about the type of pipeline it is into some physical characteristics and location can be found on the national pipeline mapping system. about other information that might be particular would not be in first responders need to rely on communication to get that kind of information and i think the two failures shows what can

happen when there is a breakdown. >> engaging with local communities and stakeholders is crucial to raise awareness about pipeline safety risks and also building trust in pipeline operators and regulators. the pipes act of 2023 even creates a new office of public engagement to educate local governments, public safety organizations, pipeline operators into the public about safety, best practices and regulations. the goal is to ensure access by facilitating conversations and addressing community concerns. to promote transparency and accountability, how are you able to bridge the gaps between industry stakeholders including public safety officials, smaller companies and local communities. >> well, i think there's still a

big need for public engagement especially after failures. i think they've made some improvements over the last few years and visited communities both after a failure and whether it's a proposed new project. that's been great to see, but i think there's a lot of progress still to be made and an appetite on the public. >> thank you and i will yield back. >> are there any further questions from any members that have not been recognized? seeing none, this concludes the hearing and i want to thank you all for being here today. look forward to any questions that need to be answered and i hope in the next couple of weeks you should be able to do so. the committee stands adjourned.

an attem by mr. trump's current lawyers to have a mirial declared by the judge afr e jury heard details from the witness that the defense of deemed as inappropriate. the judge td the lawyers he agreed to the testimony had gone into too much detail but ultimately denied the request r a mistria ms. daniels is expected to return for more questioning when the trial resumes on thursday