at midnight. also at 10:00 a.m. on c-span 3, defense secretary oyaustin and chair of the joint chiefs of staff general charles brn junior testify on e nflict between israel and hamas, the war on ukraine and the president's 2025 budget request for the pentagon. in the afternoon, washington dc's mayor andole chief testifyn e city's response to recent protests or e israel/hamas war at george washington university d e surrounding area. th is live before the house ovsight and accountability committee. at one:00 p.m. eastern. you n so watch our live coverage on c-span now video apps or online, c-span.org. friday nights, watch c-span's 2024 campaign trail. a weekly roundup of campaign coverage provided a 1-stop shop to discover what the candidates across the country are saying

to voters along with firsthand accounts from political reporters updated poll numbers, fundraising data, and campaign ads. watch c-span's 2024 campaign trail friday night at 7:30 p.m. eastern on c-span, online, c-span.org, or download as a podcast on c-span now, our free mobile apps, or wherever you get your podcast. c-span, your unfiltered view of politics. >> next, officials from the transportation department, the american gas association, and the american petroleum institute testifying on legislation to ensure the safe handling of pipelines and other hazardous materials, the house transportation and infrastructure subcommittee hearing is two hours. .. ? [inaudible conversations]

>> the subcommittee on railroads, pipelines, and hazardous materials will come to order. i asked members consent the chairman of the authorized to declare recess at any time during today's hearing. objections ordered. i i asked men's consent the members not on the subcommittee be permitted to sit with the subcommittee at today's hearing and ask questions. without objection, so ordered. as reminder that members want to insert document into the record please e-mail it. before we discuss today's hearing i would like to take a moment to remember our colleague, congressman donald payne, jr., who passed away a few weeks ago. it was a privilege to work with donald as my counterpart on the subcommittee. it was clear to all who knew him how strong his commitment to public service was and to his constituents. i'm grateful for the opportunity to work alongside donald especially with his leadership

in putting together our bipartisan pipeline safety legislation. he will be deeply missed here on the committee, under what to send my condolences and prayers to his family, friends, and staff as they deal with this great loss. i will now recognize myself for the purpose of an opening statement for five minutes. today's hearing will examine the need to reauthorize the pipeline and hazardous materials safety administration, including providing it new direction and authority over emerging energy sources. this past fall, myself, chairman graves, ranking member larsen, and ranking member payne introduced h.r. 6494, the promoting innovation in pipeline efficiency and safety act of 2023. or the pipes active 2023. last december, the committee passed h.r. 6494 out of committee on a bipartisan basis. in crafting this bill, the committee solicited input from a wide range of parties, and in turn received about 90

priorities from members and over 100 requests from pipeline safety stakeholders. i am grateful for the support from members of this committee in putting together this important piece of bipartisan legislation. in our country, roughly 3.3 million miles of onshore pipelines safely and efficiently carry natural gas, crude, hydrogen, hazardous liquids, and other energy sources vital for our nation's energy independence, making it of utmost importance for congress to ensure phmsa is focused on its core mission of advancing the safe transportation of these resources. the pipes act of 2023 reauthorizes phmsa for four years and provides the necessary resources and direction for the agency to fulfill its pipeline safety oversight responsibilities in an efficient and effective manner. the bill contains several provisions to accomplish this,

including an authorization for additional pipeline safety technical experts to complete outstanding congressional mandates. over the past 20 years more than 1,400 excavation damage incidents have occurred. therefore, h.r. 6494 includes measures to strengthen state programs to reduce the number of excavation damage incidents, promoting the public's safety. the pipes act of 2023 will also support phmsa's efforts to oversee the safe transportation of new and emerging fuels by directing phmsa to update regulations for the safe transportation of carbon dioxide and to study the use of hydrogen-blending in natural gas. these and other provisions in the pipes act of 2023 will ensure the safety and reliability of the u.s. pipeline network and the transportation of our critical energy resources.

it is more important than ever that phmsa receive a regular reauthorization from congress to provide both the agency and regulated community much needed i want to think a witness of here today and sharing their perspectives on pipeline safety reauthorization and what it means for phmsa, the industry and the communities where the transportation of our energy products take place. i will also note that my colleagues on the house energy and commerce committee have also passed pipeline safety reauthorization legislation through committee based on their jurisdiction. despite such action in the house, we have yet to see any movement in the senate from leader schumer and his majority. as the house has shown, it is possible to legislate in a bipartisan manner in the name of

pipeline safety. i call on the senate to follow suit, and hope to work with them in the near future. i will yield back and now recognize ranking member wilson for five minutes for an opening statement. >> thank you, chair nehls, for holding this hearing today. and thank you, ranking member larsen, for your faith in me. it is with a heavy heart that i take on the role of ranking member of the subcommittee. congressman donald payne, jr. was not just a colleague but a cherished friend whose legacy and dedicated to honoring and advancing. his exemplary leadership on the railroad subcommittee sets a standard of excellence that i am committed to upholding and building upon. for many years we were soldiers in the army to uplift black men

and boys, whether that be trayvon martin or fighting for health disparities along black men and alloys. he fought the good fight, to bring back our girls from africa. i sat next to him in committee for years, and we were table mates every year at the congressional black caucus gala, and we shared many memories with me. he was so proud to be the father of triplets, and to let me know that he married a florida girl. i will miss him, and i'm committed to honoring his legacy and continuing his work on this committee. as we all know, part of his mission was to ensure the safety of all people, and he had a goal of never wanting to miss a vote, regardless of his health.

and speaking everyday on the floor to on his constituents, he loved his constituents. he was a man for all seasons, and we will miss him dearly. before coming to congress i was a school principal, and nothing is more important to me than the safety and education of our children. i do not want to see amy pipeline incidents, but i'm particularly concern when they occur at or near a school. at least two recent incidents in the last year happened at or near schools. one was near an elementary school in conway washington and another was that a school in the mississippi delta in marigold mississippi. yes, believe it or not, just last month in marigold is a pipeline explosion at hays cooper center, a pre-k through eighth grade school. although no children were injured, two school staff

members were injured and taken to the hospital for treatment. i want to know how pipeline operators work with communities and schools to prevent such incidents. whether working with the impacted schools for additional tutoring or student support for those children's loss instruction time? what about their mental health? how does having to evacuate impact students with regard to the pipes 2023 bill, i support the bill because it has essential provisions that mr. payne championed, and i associate myself with his work on these efforts. among them the bill includes increase funding for the pipeline and hazardous material safety administration to support the office of pipeline safety for its critical safety mission. i am proud that this bipartisan pipeline safety bill strongly

focuses on pipeline safety. this bill also makes changes to the competitive academic agreement program to provide funding for academic research and development of pipeline safety workforce of the future. the changes will help most historically black colleges and universities and other minority serving institutions participate in the program. these are positive changes, and i urge congress to adopt them. lastly, i want to say to meir kagan of west reading who is leading her city to the aftermath of this deadliest pipeline explosion, the country expressed in 2023, thank you for watching today. i'm so sorry for your loss. seven people died after showing up for work to make chocolate. ten people injured and

understand in your volunteer firefighting capacity he also showed up to help with the immediate emergency response. we hear you, we see you and we will never forget. i look forward to hearing from our witnesses today, and i yield back my time. >> gentlelady yields. i now recognize reiki member of the full committee mr. larsen for five minutes for an opening statement. >> thank you chair nehls for calling this hearing on pipeline safety, and for your kind words about our colleague and friend, representative donald payne, jr. and we continue to mourn the day after his death two weeks ago. he was a leader on the pipes act of 2023 that our committee voted unanimously to dance in december. strongly supported ensuring fincen state pipeline safety programs have the funding to need to do the work. don also helped lay the groundwork for strong real funding the bipartisan infrastructure law because of his work we will see replacements of century old rail

bridges and tunnels on the northeast quarter. he was a friend and advocate for rail workers supporting their bid for sick leave, , high wages and improved working conditions. his efforts helped support and stork agreement that would strengthen safety and quality of life for essential rail workers. don's work to ventral safety legislation especially in wake of the derailment in east palestinian will remain an important part of his lexie that congress must continue to realize. on june 10, 1999, an olympic pipeline exploded in pulling him washington a disciplined the lives of 210 your voice and an 18 year old young man. the explosion also released 237,000 gallons of gasoline into 37,000 gallons of gasoline into a creek that flowed through false creek in bellingham. this explosion. >> my commitment steadfast or 20th the highest level pipeline safety. for my entire tenure in congress i thought to reduce the risk of pipeline incidents, promote transparency pipeline safety information for local

communities and increase accountability for pipeline operators. according to fins that aid in the past 20 20 years there he been 12,722 pipeline incidents claiming 278 lives and causing $11.4 billion in property damage. while dollars in property damage. while we work on the heights to 1-2-3 build a pipeline industry continues to experience deadly accidents causing damage to the environment. according to the pipeline safety trust, 2023 was the deadliest year for pipelines in two decades. on march 24, 2023, a ugi pipeline explosion in west reading, pennsylvania, killed seven people, injured 11, displaced three families from a neighboring apartment building and evacuated many more from the area. in november 23 as well, third coast of her sexual list 1.1 million gallons of crude oil from an underwater pipeline into a quote and usually sensitive area unquote, and the gulf of mexico about 20 miles venice

louisiana. more recently in january 24, 2 owns less than a mile in jackson the city exploded three days apart from at most energy pipeline leaks. for some excellent old and one for kelly and one in three. resulting fire from the second explosion spread to neighboring home. these incidents happened after that most identified leaks in the area but failed to repair them. putting safety first means greater oversight and get a bullet for activities pipeline operators. it means greater transparency for local committees and the public. pipes 120 republish as this by creating an office of public engagement, and i do championed by the washington say colleague representative strickland. requires them some review operated emergency management response plans. improving safety means preventing incidents. femmes of and missed a pop and safety programs need the resources and staff to inspect pipelines, conduct investigations when incidents occur, and take appropriate enforcement actions.

pipes 2023 does this by increasing the authorization for both himself and state pipe and safety organizations. please our bill includes $56 million for state pipeline safety programs over four years. i appreciate each of her witnesses painted today to talk about pipes act of 2023. i want to welcome fins a deputy administrator tristan brown to visit my district and bill caram of the pipeline safety trust organization was greater in response to the tragedy and is headquartered in my district. i also want to thank them so in the response to convoy washington pipeline leak that happened last year. cleanup continues but nears the end for that. in addition to safety initiativ initiative. the first ever natural gas distribution infrastructure state in modernization grant program, and since the fasteners $588 million or 167 projects from the $1 billion made available to municipalities and committee owned utilities to repair or replace natural gas

pipelines and help reduce incidents and approved safety. pipelines play a critical role in the nation's infrastructure in the daily lives of americans. we urge encourage you to me the national pipeline safety delivers energy across the country. i look for today's discussion. with that yield back. >> mr. larsen yields. thank you, sir. i would like to welcome our witnesses and thank them for being here today. we fled like to take a moment to explain our lighting system tour witnesses. there are three lights in front of you. green go, yellow, but time and read his completion marks after reports please. i would ask the witnesses full statement included in the record. without objection, so ordered. i also ask unanimous consent the records of today's hearing remain open until such time as a witnesses have provided answers to any question that may be submitted to them in writing. without objection, so ordered. i ask unanimous consent the record remain open for 15 days for any additional comments and information submitted by members

of witnesses to be included in the record of today's hearing. without objection, so ordered. as written testimony has been a part of the record, the subcommittee ask you limit your oral argument to five minutes. mr. brown, i appreciate you handing me the book, the 2024 emergency response guideline, 2 million of these going to first responders. well done but have an issue. and before i recognize you for five-minute test when i would like to take a moment of personal privilege, without objection, so ordered. the committee notified you on april 152024, 21 days ago, that today's hearing was taking place. you also have been asked for feedback on the pipes act far longer than that, and we on a bipartisan basis have asked for this on paper seven so that's 90 days go, three months. yet you were unable to provide your written testimony to this committee in a timely fashion

and and i and all members of the subcommittee denying as the ability to quickly review testimony. your agency is also unable to share feedback on the bill until last night after 10 p.m. i find it completely, completely unacceptable and inexcusable. now, due to your delight on both fronts many members may have questions following the hearing as well, i want to make sure it expects a full answer. we want a full answer from you to all members questions today. i would also like you to emit to responding to all members questions for the record. so give me a reasonable expectation here, can you emit to providing answer, what, do we come to ask, can you give me a number? >> as you may know, both the ta and testament does go through an interagency review process can which does take time. so i will emit to a guest asked

speedy two weeks or three weeks? come on, give me an idea. >> you speedy okay, so when i come here we go. i look forward to your responses. we hear on the subcommittee are interested in what you have to share. you can come up with a time. i look forward to a productive hearing. i hope we can have a productive hearing. without you are recognized for five minutes. go ahead, so. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you, ranking member wilson, ranking member larsen, members of the subcommittee for the invitation to discuss the office of pipeline safety at them so and work as well as the reauthorization legislation that you put together. just wanted to start by echoing the sentiments and condolences to the donald payne family come to those of you who are called exempt those of you who are friends to the office and staff members who i know were all sad as i i was to learn of his passing. it is a testament to his legacy that he works across the aisle

this pastor to help advance legislation to improve pipeline safety and to keep his constituents and all americans safe from hazardous materials transportation. as as a testified last year bee the subcommittee safety is and remains the top priority of the department of transportation and the phmsa. specifically, phmsa is responsible for overseeing the safe transport of hazardous materials through pipelines and the other modes of transportation. that trucks, trains, planes, vessels, automobiles, crohn's among others. we oversee the safe design operations and maintenance as the chairman manchin, , nearly 3.3 million miles of pipelines as well as nearly one in ten ten goods that are classified as hazardous material, transport commercially in the united states, everything from nuclear waste to lithium-ion batteries to spacecraft being transported to spaceports around the united states and around the world. nearly two-thirds of the energy we consume in the u.s. is

transported via pipeline. over the past few decades especially the last few years in conjunction with america's red-hot economic growth, energy production in the united states has continued to increase to record levels. concurrently u.s. transportation of these products as necessary increased and exports of energy products have also reached record levels. this means heightened demand on our pipelines and refined product storage infrastructure as well as export facilities, liquefied natural gas terminals, which phmsa also regulates. the volume of work before phmsa in the challenges in carrying out her safety and environmental mission have never been greater. aging infrastructure requires more maintenance and greater safety scrutiny. a significant portion of the cross-country pipeline infrastructure was built shortly after world war ii, meaning pipelines over 80 years old and they are even a few guest this region segments that were installed during the civil war

era, more than 150 years ago. which thanks to the president bipartisan infrastructure law we are finally modernizing the first of its kind as ranking member mention natural gas modernization grant program that we stood up last year which included grants in multiple district of multiple members of this subcommittee. with increasing challenges and broader demands on her agency, clear direction and resources from congress are important, and particularly is a close out the final few congressional mandates from the 2020 pipes act. phmsa is grateful for the work that this the subcommitteee in advancing bipartisan legislation including increased authorization levels. in closing i would like to thank you again for the opportunity to discuss with you the critical issues facing our agency as well as our state partners in the largest most sophisticated pipeline system in transportation hazards buttress transportation system in the world. each of the ares i outline in the written testimony are areas

in which the rest of the world looks to america for leadership. leadership in the marketplace of products for which we of the most efficient in the world and latest for establishing safety rules that countries around the world have told me that often adopt in full to improve their own pipeline safety and obama for protection, leadership and roll along what comes to disputes and compliance. leadership in research, innovation and new technologies to improve safety and of i'm a performance that are sold domestically and exported around the world. leadership in transparency and engagement with affected communities, which other countries also look to as a new standard. and leadership inefficiencies for all the work that we do. this work is result of our collaboration with congressional committees that authorize and fund our agency as well as the stakeholders represented here, but trudeaus most of trudeaus for all the achievements of our agency go to the nearly six and

50 full-time federal employees, nearly 200 contractors that make up what i always is the most unsung agency in the government. thank you for your efforts to advance bipartisan reauthorization legislation. i look for to working with you and your colleagues as congress considers a pipeline safety reauthorization bill and honors the efforts of your colleagues mr. payne. i i look forward to your questi questions. >> thank you. next ms. sainz you are recognized for five minutes for your testimony. >> chairman nehls, ranking member wilson, and members of the subcommittee, i'm christina sames, senior vice president for safety operation, engineering and security at the american gas association. prior to aga and worked in research and development at pipeline research council international and spent 12 years in public service working for the office, office of pipeline safety. i get to officially retire next month after 34 34 year career dedicated to pipeline safety. i'm proud to have made a

difference and i guess i should thank you all for this retirement gift of having me in front of the hearing, thank you. aga represents more than 200 utilities that deliver natural gas to 74 million customers. natural gas pipelines deliver essential energy to 177 million americans through a 2.5 million miles of pipeline system, including 2.2 miles of .2 miles of local distribution system operated by natural gas utilities, peer for natural gas utility distribution pipelines are the last critical link in the delivery chains that brings natural gas on the well had all the way to the burner tip. so basically aga is mips on the face of the industry. they live in the communities they serve, interact daily with their customers and state regulators oversee pipeline safety and the customers are their neighbors, family and their friends. as such pipeline safety is and must be our number one priority.

the primary safety tool that castigation operators use his distribution integrity program. array arrange a process than operator to develop a safety plan that addresses unique operating patristics of the individual pipeline system and prioritizes work to strengthen that particular system. upgrading distribution pipeline systems is also an important pipeline safety component. currently 43 states from the district of columbia have expedited pipeline replacement programs, and then just the last 17 years these replacement programs have allowed operators to reduce the amount of cast iron by over 50%. replacing those lines with plastic which will increase safety reliability and limit methane release. the natural gas distribution industry has proved they can simultaneously increased natural gas delivery and improve safety,

but more needs to be done. aga please plays the pron the committee passed bipartisan promoting innovation and pipeline efficiencies and safety, pipes act, of 2023 will substantially improve pipeline safety by limiting deaths, serious injuries, property damage and environmental impacts caused by unintended excavation damage. strengthening criminal penalties for those who sabotage and intentionally damage pipeline operations. stating how natural gas hydrogen blending and distribution systems worldwide are safely operated, creating a voluntary information safety system to collect and share best practices, and lessons learned while sufficient, with sufficient legal and regulatory safe harbors to guarantee industry participation. and establishing a four-year reauthorization period so phmsa and industry has sufficient time to complete work, authorized in

previous reauthorization. while not in bill, aga is strong supports grade of regulatory process to identify technology alternatives that if utilized will meet the intent of existing pipeline safety regulations and provide equal if not greater levels of safety. aga and its members support fact-based, , reasonable and practical updates to pipeline safety legislation that build upon the lessons learned and the evolving technologies. and in that spirit aga looks forward to our continued work with this committee as well as the house energy and commerce committee and the senate commerce committee to finalize pipeline safety trust authorization. thank you for the opportunity to participate in this hearing. i look forward to your questions. >> thank you. mr. work you are recognized by this. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thanks for the opportunity to testify this morning.

i'd like to start by offering my condolences on lots of ranking member payne. my thoughts are with his family. my name is robin rorick and in the vice president midstream policy at the american petroleum institute. on behalf of api we appreciate the opportunity to test the best part of this important hearing addressing pipeline safety and the reauthorization of the department transportation pipelines and hazardous materials safety administration. everyday our nation's that woule more than 500,000 miles of transmission pipelines transport oil, natural gas, refined product at low carbon energy that few american life. america has led the world in reducing carbon dioxide emissions over the past two decades even as our industry has made the united states the world's leading producer of oil and natural gas. the air americans breathe is clear because of innovative improvements to the wind energy is produced, transported, refined and consumed but we need pragmatic bipartisan energy policies that support the reasonable development of our nation's oil and natural gas

resources including policymaking that encourage investment in critical energy infrastructure like pipelines. pipelines one of the safest most of i mentally responsible ways to transfer energy to consumers are in every u.s. state and our industry is committed to zero incident safety culture. even as barrels delivered and pipeline miles, violence continues to increase the strong safety record is improving. over the last five years total liquid pipeline incidents decreased 23% with 87 a few incidents in 2023 compared to 2019 while incidents impacting people or the five it decreased 7%. we welcome effective policymaking to continue to build upon this progress and further improve pipeline safety. we applaud this committee is passage of the company is a bipartisan bill the promoting innovation in pipeline efficiency and safety, or pipes act of 2023. the bill the committee passed in december of last year and its many important policy measures that api discomfit will make our nation pipeline network safer and more reliable. in particular we are pleased the

bill requires phmsa to execute a more timely a frequent review process for industry standards that are incorporated by reference into phmsa regulation. there are more than six or 50 references to api standards and federal regulations. these are revised and improved if i get at a minimum to api's american national standards institute accredited process and regulations struggled to keep pace with the advances in pipeline safety technology and modern engineering practices that are incorporated into the standards. today approximately 2% of the instances where phmsa cites a bystander or out of date and you don't reference the most recent edition. is the winter phmsa is respond to industry standards updates to maximize safety and insurance regulations keep pace with advances in engineering and technology. the bill wrecks rex the f transportation to allow pipeline operators to establish storage tank inspection frequency on risk-based engineering principles, advances pipeline safety to the creation of a

volunteer information sharing system, strengthens protection for pipeline infrastructure by criminalizing activities that cause and effect in or disrupt operation of a pipeline, and encourages innovation and investment in a cleaner energy future by requiring phmsa to promulgate rule-making force you to pipelines as well as the safe use of composite materials. the bill recognizes the important conservation efforts pipeline operators have embraced. api believes this bill would make our nation's pipeline safer and more reliable but we know you share jurisdictions with other committees. conversation on reauthorization are ongoing. we urge you to continue advocating for the provisions i've mentioned it also to consider supporting language introduced by other committees that would reauthorize technology pilot program and provide clarity as to what agency regulates implant piping at refineries. as a final matter our interest is actively engage in the regulatory process to help phmsa craft workable final leak detection and repair both that we believe the initial proposal

went beyond the scope of what congress intended. we appreciate the letter chairman graves and chairman nehls santa's phmsa lasher raising concerns and as we await the final rule i urge you to continue to conduct oversight of this process. this rulemaking demonstrates the significance and impact of the reauthorization process and we appreciate the opportunity to participate in the discussion of the bill on the table today. in closing let me stress pipeline safety is not a partisan issue and our industry needs effective legislation to meet the challenge of inching ever growing energy demand while advancing safety and leading the world in emission reductions. api a pre-shoots the opportunity to engage in today's hearing and the committee's important work to advance a bipartisan pipeline safety bill. chairman nehls, ranking member wilson, ranking it will some members of h.e.l.p. committee this concludes my prepared statement and other port to the conversation we're going to have to take. >> thank you. mr. caram you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, chairman nehls, ranking member wilson, rank member larsson, members of the

subcommittee for inviting me to speak today. i also want to take a moment to acknowledge the passing of ranking member kaine, a great leader with whom i feel like have worked. he will be missed and my heart goes out to his family, friends and colleagues. my organization was formed after the olympic pipeline tragedy stole the lives of three boys in bellingham washington in 1999. the u.s. justice department was so aghast that than that which is a pipeline company and the lack of oversight from the government have asked the court to set aside money from some integrate the pipeline safety trust as an independent national watchdog. our vision is for no a security to endure the senseless grief that bellingham had to expect from a pipeline tragedy though sadly there been many pipeline tragedy and disasters since bellingham. since the subcommittee held its last pipe wednesday during about 40 months ago, 24 people have died from pipeline failures in the united states. in fact, 2023 was the deadliest year for pipeline safety in american in at least a decade. i stated before the subcommittee

we were not making progress on pipeline safety and a repeat that statement today. total fatales, total incidents and significant incidents show us statistically flat trend line with no real progress. i would like to share a few stories of recent pipeline failures that highlight some of the roblox towards safer pipelines. in bellingham, washington, we are planning along with the films of the three boys who died in the olympic pipeline tragedy almost exactly 25 years ago i i commemorations of that horrendous day. just a few months ago amid this planning the pipeline failed again. this time spilling 25,000 gallons of gasoline just 500 feet home in elementary school. thank goodness i wasn't during school hours and didn't ignite. this family was likely due to corrosion which an effective integrity management program should eliminate. over the past 20 as regulars and industry have focused on reducing failures through integrity management and high consequence areas. that theory is sound. focused efforts with the most harm to people in your five it

could occur by and invite all potential risks in those areas and mitigate those risks. integrity management programs do not seem to have lived up to their promise. incident rates within high consequence areas are as high or higher than those outside. just last month the same carbon dioxide pipeline ruptured in mississippi and sent nearly 50 people to the hospital in 2020 failed again, this time in sulfur louisiana. likely, this happen when residents who lived less than 500 feet from the failure were not help what is good that story. it took been very more than two hours to rise and close the manual valve, which is entirely too long. beyond the regular shortfalls of carbon dockside pipelines which are included in my previous testimony this incident raises another important pipeline safety priority, rupture mitigation valves and the ability to promptly closed valves. the ntsb begin calling for rupture mitigation valves in 1970, continue with a formal recommendation after the fatal

pg&e pipeline tragedy in california in 2010. 2010. that recommendation remains open today because phmsa is unable to require existing pipelines to upgrade equipment due to congressional limitations. congress needs require operators to install this valves in high consequence areas. there been many pipeline failures turn to tragedies by an operators inability to close valves promptly. and just weeks after last years. on pipeline safety before the subcommittee, a pipeline explosion at a chocolate factory and west reading, pennsylvania, killed seven, hospitalize 11. according to a preliminary report by the ntsb the point of failure was likely a service he made from dupont out of plastic at the ntsb published a report highlighting problems with the plastic service keys in 1980 phmsa list of involvement component and voluntary advisory bulletin and 27 -- 2007. at what point do we go. bollinger recommendation to make it explicitly illegal for this material to be part of our

nation's pipelines? the common theme among the pipeline disasters i sure did a is congress and the regulators leaving too much up to voluntary or performance-based efforts. it's important to offer flexibility to enable industry leaders to make new investments. however, the regulations need to ensure the entire industries operating safe pipelines. please remember that way for people who have died from pipeline failures since elastomer testified before the subcommittee 14 months ago and think of the empty seats at the from dinner tables to i can tell you to the families in bellingham, the pain never goes away. thank you. >> thank you. i would like to thank you all for your testimony. we will now turn to the panel for questions. i will recognize myself for five minutes. last december of this committee passed the pipes act of 2023 on a bipartisan basis, which provides phmsa with it for your authorization and congressional direction for federal pipeline

safety policy. unfortunately while we continue to work to advance this legislation, the authorization for phmsa expired in september of 2023. 2023. can each briefly describe the effects how a lack of authorization and what benefits does reauthorization provide? and also with you, deputy administrator breath and then we will go down the panel. >> i'll be a real brief, just make sure you get everybody. there's no direct effects but obviously having the requisite resources to oversee the additional product moving that we oversee and the direction that we get every few years of what is most important to this body, this subcommittee and the larger chamber and body of congress is very important to our work. >> in my opinion not putting forward reauthorization actually limits phmsa in some regards

they are in a holding pattern. we need to see what occurs with legislation. i believe are a little hesitant to move certain things forward until they get the full direction of congress. there are some great things in reauthorization, at least that this committee proposed, that i truly believe will improve pipeline safety, especially when, in regards to excavation damage prevention and additional grant funding that will incentivize operator states to enact leading practices. i think with the change of direction, phmsa can continue its great role of pipeline safety forward. we're hoping to begin soon. >> thank you. mr. rorick. >> similarly, we hear from our members regularly that certainty is actually critical so that he can make investments they need and operate their businesses.

having regular reauthorization making sure the phmsa fulfills obligations from past authorizations provides that level of certainty so our company is no where to invest,, what kind of technology to invest income will kind of practices to invest in. so providing that certainty and that clarity is critical to ensuring we have reliability and efficiently dash of efficiency that the customers expect from us. >> mr. caram. >> while prompt reauthorization of the agency is of course important, i think what's more important is the safety advancements that are made in the legislation, more than the promise of the reauthorization. >> i think it's fantastic and the house did their will. we did of vipers and build a city on chuck schumer's testaments and use nothing with it and i don't know when he's going to do anything, if anything at all. they seem to be very dysfunctional over there. so i would like to ask, yeah, excuse me.

where is my -- we talked a little about the -- we talked a bit about the pipes act of 2023, and jamaican it a little bit about the reduce the excavation damage incidents. talk about that. what is interactive excavation damage incident on the gas distribution system? >> it's the leading cause of our incidents. well, that and vehicle sitting pipelines. if you look at the statistics, and, unfortunately, on excavation damage it's going in the wrong direction. so if you look at, if i look at like the twenty-year trend for serious incidents, twenty-year trend we were at 24.6% of all incidents being excavation damage. if i jump to the three-year trend it goes up to 28%.

if i go to than the the difficult incidents, the twenty-year trend is 33.6%. if i jump to three years, it's now 42.4%. so 4%. so for the distribution industry, our focus is really on how do we reduce these excavation incidents? i believe phmsa has done a great job with helping to create the common ground alliance and in permitting 811 811 call befu dig and providing grants, but it's not enough. so we really need some additional incentives for states to adopt leading practices, and then honestly we need really good enforcement at the state level for those that are not, where it's cheaper for them to hit the pipeline instead of calling before digging. >> i agree with you and i think the pipes act of 2023 address some of those issues. thank you. i yield back. i now recognize the ranking member for five pence for

questions. >> thank you. mr. caram, do you think that pipeline operators are doing a good job of supporting the communities where there are accidents and incidents? >> no operative once the pipeline to fail, and so nothing is intentional. but i think when we look at the long-term trends, as i mentioned in my opening remarks, on fatalities, on total incidents, significant incidents and the fact that those trendlines are statistically flat, i don't think we're making sufficient progress in keeping our communities safe. >> do you know how they engage with schools and other members of the public? >> yes. there is, i think public engagement has been an area where the industry, the

regulators have all fallen a bit short. but there has been progress made recently. there's been a new recommend practice on public engagement. that was put together by a working group under api, and it's just recently been adopted and outlines some great best practices for operators to share information and how to engage with the people around the pipeline, with schools, and it would affected by the pipelines. i hope that operators will incorporate that and that we will see an improvement in public engagement. but right now i think we're seeing a lot of poor public engagement across the country. >> okay. the national transportation safety board identified that at the tragic ugi pipeline explosion in reading pennsylvania there was an older service key emergency spilling

make the material that phmsa identified in 2007. as having low performance history. is this fence is way of saying that operators should get rid of pipelines with that material? >> yes. yes. but it is a voluntary advisory bulletin and it was also recently incorporator into a proposed rule on distribution systems to look at the service keys and this vision integrity management but again that is performance-based of living up to operators so there's been a lot of encouragement to find all that and systems and remove them but it is not been mandatory. >> do you know what operators

they would do that using this material and what have they done about it? >> i think operators have been looking for it. this product was installed in pipelines many decades ago and recordkeeping may not have been what is required to be now. and so there is a challenge in finding every instance of this service keys in a system. but i believe it is operators responsibility to find and remove it. >> thank you. >> mr. brown. mr. graham outline the day the same personal impact of loss of life on pipeline incidents and accidents. what is economic impact to communities with our pipeline accidents and incidents? i am particularly thinking of west reading.

that loss will have a severe long-term economic impact to the community. what is economic impact? >> i know everybody here has seen the tragedy that can occur like the one you referenced, and the impacts can be married. of course first and foremost is impact on families and loved ones and community members. i was justin jackson, mississippi, with congressman thompson a meeting with the community there. that was affected by tragic totality. there's a lot of concern and people wonder if there systems are safe. businesses can use access to energy. the impacts are married so i applaud the committee's work in trying to identify those impacts. i certainly when we see a loss

of a system that people rely on for energy, the committee direct and indirect impacts. >> thank you. i yield back. >> the gentlelady yields. i never like it is my code from the great state of texas, mr. bauman, for fibrous. >> thank you very much, mr. cha. what you think the witnesses for being here. deputy administrator brown, simpson is far behind schedule in completing the idle pipeline rulemaking which as you know is required by congress to be promulgated by the end of december of 122. phmsa should not continue to regulate idle and fully active pipelines the same. idle pipes do not carry hazardous materials, as you know. they are disconnected from sources that allow for transporting hazardous materials. so the regulation should be appropriately tailored to reflect reduced risk of

incidents. regulating idle pipelines the sims active pipelines means that phmsa is directing precious and limited resources here when the fines could be much better use in fomenting of the regulations. so you joined us, administrator brown, for hearing on reauthorization last year, and in your responses to questions for the record you indicated phmsa intends to issue a proposed rule in the first quarter of this year. this has come and gone. i ask you, why has phmsa still not completed this rule? is there an updated timeline for completion that you might be able to share with us? >> yeah, at the committee direction and congresses direction with it on a monthly basis all of our rulemaking from the 2020 pipes act. i believe that one is slated for later this year. i will be perfectly honest with you though, we've got, you give us 36 mandates in the last reauthorization bill compared to

19 mandates in the previous reauthorization bill. we had almost doubled the number of directives from you and so we continued the triage the directives with the highest safety and pie, produce safety risk to the american people first and so that when is on the list of priorities, just lower than the high risk rulings were working through. >> mr. rorick, you elaborate on the impact that the idle pipe rule will have on our industry and is having on our industry? >> yes, sir. we've been very vocal as an association and you for quite a bit from our industry i'm sure about the challenges associate with permitting for new pipelines, even doing some work on existing pipelines. those permitting challenges are not going away. being able to right now there are two categories as you pointed out, active and the band i am fed up and i've has to be pulled out. getting this classification would allow companies to leave the pipe in the ground so they can come back and use together from a safety perspective they purge the line, kalyna, fill it

with inner gas so that it rests their harbors harmless s monitored but it doesn't take a seem quite resources you pointed out earlier. if a critic didn't operate this infrastructure in this country without building more then brooklyn need all the pipe we've got. >> amen. thank you. one more question for you, mr. brown. in the 2020 pipes act congressman davidson phmsa updater safety regulations governing large-scale lng export facilities. the last time you a good before us here at the committee you mention it was a high priority and yet the proposed rule has still not been released yet. again, timeliness seems to be a problem with you and phmsa. why has phmsa still a completed this rule, and what's the status of this regulation? >> i would echo my earlier answer but i'll just add that in your home state we had one of the largest exporters of lng experience a 400-foot high

fireball, explosion at the facility. luckily no one was killed. we want to learn what went wrong and include it in the updates. that is part of reason we want,, we're continuing our investigation of the incident. but what complete the lessons learned from the incident in that rulemaking. >> okay. last question. as you know phmsa may reimburse states for updated% costs incurred by states and enforcing pipeline safety laws and regulation. given that takes is far and away the leading state in terms of total pipeline miles, we're spending more than any other state to meet these safety standards. unfortunately, taxes receiving significantly less than the authorized 80% reimbursement. i did want to put this on your radar as an issue, if you're not already aware that there also would like to encourage a team to work with both the railroad commission of texas and texans on this on the subcommittee, myself and chairman nehls, to ensure that we can get this fixed with a long-term solution that doesn't

leave the nation's number one energy producer in an unsustainable financial situation. so if you get in touch with our team and send us the requested information about the things i've asked, i certainly would appreciate. >> yes, sir. trick if i can respond with a thank you to congress just a few weeks ago that fy '24 appropriations bill included a big boost for the state program grants. so we anticipate getting a boost in funding to the the states along with the rest of your states. so thank you for that. >> thank you and i yield back. >> the gentleman yields. i never like it as a valued member of the subcommittee, mr. moulton, for minutes or a given much mr. chairman. back in may of 2018, the merrimack valley, homes just started exploding across several towns.

a gas pipeline was over pressurize, dramatically over pressurize. literally explosion started coming out of peoples houses. in the 18-year-old was killed. i worked with the massachusetts colleagues to update pipeline regulations. my colleague from texas has just made the same point, but why is it taking so long to get these rules idolize? i mean, any day and the accident could happen. you just talked about a 400-foot fireball in texas. why the delay? >> we follow the administrative procedure act and then we also follow the statute that govern as which includes an additional advisory committee review, which includes five public interest represented can fight industry represents, five state government representatives. that takes an extra many months to work through the highly technical issues involved in these regulations. the other thing is that we regulate thousands of operators

each with unique systems. so creative and one-size-fits-all rule is very difficult. it usually means we end up in the courts because one entity does alike but we do, or small group of entities don't like how we are directing operators to operate. so those are just a few of the big challenges we have. but the obvious one is resources, that we had, , we started off with two regular sort of attorneys were gilgal one you directed us to do. we've doubled that as soon as the administration took office, and we've said record number of rules in the first year that we got here, but they're still a backlog and so we appreciate this committees support for additional resources for additional rulemaking team members. >> the last phmsa reauthorization include a provision requiring the secretary of transportation to a report to congress about the need for an independent pipeline

testing facility under dot. my understanding is that phmsa is the only essentially pipeline the only major mode of transportation that does not have a dedicated research testing evaluation facility. has phmsa finalize the report of the note when it will be delivered to congress? >> we are part of the way through in the report. it is not been finalized. we do find nonprofits that do some of that pipeline research testing through the funds you authorized as well. >> can you give us any idea of what the timeline is? part way through does not sound encouraging. >> yeah. i would suggest a matter of months. we've had discussions with folks on both sides of the isles and multiple committees on that. i think there's varying interest in the subject of creating a facility, but look forward to giving you that report. >> can you give us some indication of what the fines a

recommendations will be? >> i have not seen a draft yet. >> that's not encouraging. >> but glad to provide you an update as soon as we can't. >> okay. shifting topics for secondary integrity management programs are the primary tool that pipeline operators use to ensure the safety of their pipelines. does this work? is it a good system we've got thousands of operators and its certainly working well with some. and i think certainly not with others. coupled with our push, this committees push, stakeholders here push for pipeline safety management systems where you are constantly looking and challenging your own presumptions and where risks may be, i think there's a lot of promise. i think we heard some, we welcome the constructive criticism of what might not be working. that's really funny middle to safety management system is that you're always looking for what

are we missing? with integrity management because systems are so different, it it's hard to wa single rule prescriptive role for the disparate systems across the country. >> did you feel that is the right approach or she would be taking an entirely different approach? >> i would say all, that is just one approach that we have but we are investing in research. we issue safety advisories. we issue directives when emergency orders when needed. so i think there's promise. i think the rest of the world does use a lot of this, a similar non-prescriptive regulatory scheme, but want to use just any tool and a toolbelt to address safety risk. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i yield back. >> the gentleman yields. i now recognize mr. rouzer for five and. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. brown come with regard to the leak detection and repair rule come when the agency release the final rule you

anticipate? >> our monthly update suggests i think by the end of the year. >> will the white house and ceq be involved in reviewing this rule, the rulemaking? >> through the interagency process every agency will have an opportunity to provide feedback in doing that. in the proposal stage i think there was minimal involvement. really, the input comes at the advisory committee stage where we have got input from a lot of the stakeholders here to try to build consensus around that rule, which was largely been able to do. >> is the agency working with the epa to harmonize visual with the epa methane regulations since the would be overlapping requirements? >> yes, we did that at the proposed rule stage. as you know sometimes the rules don't align perfectly from us timestamp what we have a probe will you might write up what you waiting on another agency to propose their will, so we are though to try to minimize overlap between our agencies.

.. that all leaks are hazardous? >> i was just in jackson mississippi where a nonhazardous leak resulted in the death so we are highly concerned about the potential for a nonhazardous leak to become hazardous, but not all nonhazardous leaks are hazardous. >> in your written testimony, you highlight concerns that the industry has with the detection and others proposed rulemaking. specifically i >> specifically i noted that phmsa, can you elaborate on that. >> we believe that phmsa went beyond what congressman dated specifically going into rural gathering lines in lng facilities in those two

particular areas and for doing that, the rural gathering lines you're pulling in areas that would dilute, someone mentioned a comment or concern about phmsa doing it and releases of more densely populated areas. >> may i address that question? >> sure. >> briefly. >> i just want to add at the advisory committee meeting last month there was an inclusion of the gathering lines and with nuance around how that would impact those lines. >> you know, i note that phmsa is required for an analysis on rule making, any comment on how that will play out? >> yes, sir, if you look at those, i think we would

disagree with the deputy administrator and epa looking at the flow rate and proposed rule would look at concentration threshold so there's some conflict there about the epa rule, but if you add in the low threshold, it would effectively remove a lot of the opportunities that current operators use to maintain these. they'd have to walk the lines with hand held meters. and then if you pull in the rural gathering lines, that's an extra cost and burden there and i don't know if their cost benefits looked at items associated such as those. >> with that, i'll yield back. thank you, mr. chairman. >> the gentleman yields. i'll recognize mr. garcia for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman, and ranking member for holding this very important and timely

hearing. i, too, want to take a moment to recognize the passing of former ranking member of the subcommittee congressman payne. i told the utmost respect for him and his leadership displayed time and time over the years. he will be missed. moving to the topic of today's hearing, we've heard from my colleagues about the importance of pipeline safety, indeed safety should be the number one priority when transporting materials like co2 and odorless that can be deadly if improperly managed and that's exactly what we should be concerned about as we look to the future, especially as industry looks to dramatically expand our network of carbon dioxide pipeline. mr. rorick, american petroleum's testimony boasts about the safety of pipelines. and your company has been

operating co2 pipelines safely more than four decades with no fatalities, but a co2 pipeline rupture in mississippi caused 45 people to be hospitalized from co2 poisoning where people lay on the ground, shaking and unable to breathe. it was lucky that this tragedy didn't end worse. mr. rorick, yes or no, does that sound safe to you? >> there are certainly risks associated with that as a tragic incident. know that's an incident that we would have liked to have avoided, sir, i'd like to go into more details than yes or no. >> another example, in louisiana, an estimated 107,000 gallons of co2 leaked from a pipeline owned by exxon-mobile, local police and firefighters could do nothing than set and

wait for the pipeline's owner to repair it. it took more than two hours to repair, and many residents were never notified of the leak. yes or no, does that sound safe? >> the incident occurred, but that doesn't necessarily mean the pipeline wasn't safe, sir. >> my final question, mr. rorick. how much does co2 pipeline developers stand to profit from these pipelines? >> i'm not in a position to answer that, sir. you'd have to ask those individual operators. >> well, since you're not sure, i'll tell you that in the midwest, summit carbon solutions, largest solution of pipe work in the nation could be 18 billion dollars in tax benefits for their project. that's just one company. it's apparent that there are dangerous gaps in federal

regulations that keep people safe and huge economic motivations for the companies that want to see these pipelines built. leak notification system, detection methods odorless co2 and emergency responses, plans, are nowhere near built out. we should be putting a moratorium on all co2 pipelines until we can assure that people, especially ones in vulnerable communities, where these are built, will be protected. thank you and i yield back, mr. chairman. >> the gentleman yields. i now recognize mr. sawberg for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. and the rule allows pipeline companies to employ modern technologies to improve safety of existing pipelines. when population changes could he cur nearby, unhelpful methods, we've talked about the

gas pipeline advisory committee that convened a meeting on class location and voted overwhelmingly to meet again on the rule making within 12 months. can phmsa commit to march of 2025? >> we were able to meet and completed the work on that rule. >> thank you. >> so, mr. brown, how many barrels of oil-- i'm from minnesota, how many barrels of oil do we produce annually in minnesota? >> not familiar with the state level of that. >> zero. >> i just wanted to share with you something that concerns me, how many total miles of pipeline in the united states totally. >> roughly a little over three million.

>> how many miles of those pipelines are involving oil and gas? >> involved oil or gas, roughly three million. >> total? >> total. >> so if the biden administration gets their way of removing oil and gas industry would that be down to zero pipelines then? >> i'm not sure i follow. if-- could you repeat the question? >> if the biden administration gets their way of removing oil and gas industry from the united states, would we be down to zero pipelines? >> i'm not familiar with any proposal to do such a thing and in fact, the number of pipelines has increased, i believe 17% in the transmission space over just the last few years. 13% overall in just the last few years, so, and then with record investments in new emerging technologies, hydrogen, co2, there's potentially a tipped expansion

there. >> you have a very impressive background, would you say the pipeline safety and enhappensments have done well in the last 10 years. >> absolutely, the technologies are incredible. >> miss sams congratulations on your retirement. >> thank you, sir. >> this may be one of your last meetings to testify, but again, thanks for your service and your knowledge. would you agree because really the safety for the pipelines is a bipartisan issue and we want that, would you agree that the technology involving the safety within the pipelines has greatly been enhanced in the last 10 years? >> greatly enhanced over the decades i've been in service. >> mr. rorick? >> yes, sir, leaps and bounds. >> yes, there's been a lot of

great technological in the safety. >> and we talk about pipeline safety on both sides of the aisle and we have what i would say is unlawful people, valve turners trying to damage pipelines and what have you. does everybody on the panel agree that those terrorists that damage pipelines and cause union members to be in danger and the public to be in danger, do you all agree that they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law because the danger they're putting us all in? mr. brown, we'll go right down the line. >> should terrorists who threaten or damage pipelines should be prosecuted. >> to the fullest extent of the law? >> to the fullest extent of the law. >> ms. sames. >> absolutely agree. >> and mr. carroll. >> we don't support any creation of an unsafe condition like that on the pipelinements thank you very much and i just

want to thank you all for coming and sharing your testimony. you know, as being on the full committee of tni, a lot of these issues of bipartisan and we need to recognize the safety issue. it affects us all and i'm really thankful that the chairman brought this meeting together today to talk about the safety issue, which is the number one issue that we're discussing today. mr. chair, i thank you for your leadership and i yield back. >> thank you, sir, just for note what we passed here does strengthen the penalties for those who want to create at that terrorist act in our pipeline. the gentleman yields. i now recognize mr. huffman for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman and i want to thank the witnesses. thank you in particular, mr. carom for speaking some important truths about the inherent dangers and risks of

this spider web of combustible infrastructure that we rely on to power the fossil fuel economy. i think there is too much fossil fuel business as usual in this country, certainly in this conversation about continuing to build out this system that is frankly a disaster waiting to happen every day and it does happen just about every day. i heard about a fireball in a lng facility just now that i'd never heard about before. pretty much doesn't make news because it's the cost of fossil fuel business as usual that we've come to accept. i feel by passing a bill not to acknowledge this, much less, we're sleepwalking into further and further into tragedies and disasters. now, you don't have to look far to find examples of this over the last 12 years.

the keystone pipeline has had 22 oil spills, including two large spills between 2017 and 2019 and then again in 2022. it's built barrels in nebraska and because of these issues the gao issued a report in july of '21 regarding the pipeline safety record revealed a shocking revelation, the keystone with this terrible record was not an outlier, it's about the same safety as pipelines all over the country. this, taken with mr. carom's testimony showing that 2023 was the deadliest year for pipeline safety in america in 20 years, should be a red flag. it's a clear sign of how concerned we should be by the state of our pipeline infrastructure and especially by this increased buildout that we're sleeping walking toward in this committee and in this congress. now, sadly, another example of the significant threat pipelines pose can be seen with

the failure of the danbury in 2020, mississippi had dangerous levels of co2. when it ruptured, it took a few moments for residents to feel the effects, and 50 went to the hospital and a number are still suffering today. these actions and failures are not outliers, we're continuing to see the same problems from the same entities. just last month, another co2 leak this time in louisiana. mr. brown, after the co2 pipeline disaster, found that the danbury made a lot of mistakes, significantly underestimated the size of the affected area, the inadequate monitoring, took too long to notify officials. one would hope that denbury would have been closely monitored and scrutinized by

phmsa to be accounted for and it appears that many occurred with the sulfur leak. apparently denbury was unaware of the failure and took hours to arrive on the scene. and if it occurred where residents were in the area during the day, it could have been catastrophic. is there any that phmts by denbury -- in reviewing the aftermath of the second incident in sulfur, louisiana, which of these seemed to have gone ignored or unaddressed? >> i can note that there are numerous directives that we provided to denbury after the first incident and we're in the second phase of the second incident which can take some time and we also applied the lessons learned, which i know you had asked me the last time i was here, to a proposed rule that we hope to have out in the next few weeks, to create the

strongest standards for co2 pipelines. >> i think we all look forward to seeing that rule. look, we have only about 5,000 miles of co2 pipelines right now. most of it in rural areas, thankfully, when something terrible happens, as it will continue to do. we've not yet seen major population centers affected, however, there's tremendous pressure now to build out this network. i think it's inevitable that incidents like sulfur louisiana are coming to more populated areas in the near future and this committee, unfortunately, is sleepwalking into that state. with all of this pipeline boosterism, not only worsening the climate crisis, but taking as far as these tragedies, we haven't even talked about the blending of hydrogen in the natural gas pipelines. i don't have time to go into it, but there's far more that needs to be talked about, that needs to be addressed and we need to be worried about in this committee if we're going

to be serious about pipeline safety. with that i'll yield back. >> the yeah yields and i recognize mr. johnson from south dakota. >> thanks, mr. chairman. mr. brown, as you know, the pipes act of 2020 implemented a new technology pilot program. this was to allow people to try new technological innovations, obviously to increase safety. i can imagine all kinds of situations where in line inspection or leak detection, innovations we would want those brought to market or to the field, rather, in some sort of pilot program. when were you here last i thought we had a good productive conversation and i want to pick up where we left off there. it's my understanding that we still don't have anybody utilizing that pilot program. so have you all had any applications? >> yeah, thank you for your constructive question last time and directive, really, and offer to work together. we had some constructive discussions after that with stake holders.

the goal is to get new technologies deployed. and we have laws that still afly to us, unless you tell us they don't apply, to consider environmental benefits. as far as i've heard, there's no interest in avoiding consideration of environmental benefits. everybody wants that because new technologies tend to produce environmental benefits so really it's making sure the laws align and how to do it efficiently and consider the environmentals. >> do we have any applicants to use the pilot program? >> well, the program hasn't changed. we sought feedback from the public and we didn't get feedback from the public, but we did get feedback in this committee that said, from stakeholders, we don't find this sufficient because we have to consider the national environmental policy act analysis in the utilization of that program, and so, really, we're discussing how-- is there another way to consider the environmental impact for the technologies, we're glad to work with you to

address that. >> so you're saying that the pilot program as currently outlined in law does not provide any meaningful benefits to operators? >> nobody has used it yet. correct. >> so what do we need? we know that there are these innovations, presumably we'd want to test them on the field in the pilot program to get good data about their efficacy. how do we get that done if not through this pilot program? >> well, i think, you know, i'd leave it up to my colleagues here to answer, but our goal is the same goal that you have. we don't want to just use the american people as guinea pigs, right. we want to make sure there's equivalent level of safety and there are not new environmental costs to the public, right? so i think that everybody is on the same page of what we're trying to get at and the question is how to do it. >> and again, that's why it's great we have this panel of experts and mr. rorick i'll go

to you next. number one if they exist and how best to deploy them in the manner as deputy administrator brown said. how do we get that done? you said that's the question? that's the question i'm asking. >> you demonstrate an equivalent level of safety to us and we could issue a special permit to deviate from existing standards or regulation. so there's actually a current way to do it and then congress devised a third way, which is the pilot program. using that pilot program you still have to analyze the potential environmental impacts. >> sure. >> and the question was, well, do you have to analyze those environmental impacts? and i think we heard and i think mr. rorick's testimony, no you don't have to examine the environmental impact. most of your members say we want positive environmental impact. >> you talk about people making the filings to be able to get clearance to put into practice,

and how common are those? >> they vary widely. so. >> i mean, would they be monthly, quarterly, annually? >> for specific technologies, they're not frequent. >> okay. >> mr. rorick. >> so i think that right now, the way the program is designed is just too onerous and too cumbersome for companies to participant. so if we're able to bring the technologies into the testing phase as you represent, then congress will have a platform to deviate away from the special perm permit process so we don't get bogged down that they have with the current program. >> i would say this and thanks for the colloquy. for four years, congress has been saying they want to make it -- they want these new

technologies brought to bear so we could have a safer and better system. the fact that phmsa doesn't have partners to get that done, i would ask for urgency within the agency and within the hill for us to get that done. with that, i would yield back. >> the gentleman yields. mr. cain, you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman and thank you to all of our witnesses for being here today. and before i begin, i just want to add my voice to those who mourn the loss of congressman payne. he was a tremendous leader on this subcommittee and also for all things new jersey and my prayers are with him and with his family. my first question is to ms. sames. pipeline safety technology continually adapting and improving. sometimes it takes a while for

federal agencies to catch up and allow new technology to be used. what challenges have you seen to getting new technology approved? >> i think we just discussed some of them with the current program at phmts burdensome for the technology. the other thing i see when a new technology comes to the market and is proven, but isn't allowed due to the current regulations. let me explain. annal' give an example. right now phmsa operations put a device in front of the meet tower protect that meter and that was appropriate in the '70s when the you don't want it

to be released and if the meter is hit, it immediately stops the flow of gas. the operator can't use that now because phmsa has that allowed in place to protect the meter. i would love to see phmsa how current technologies can be used to meet the intensive regulation in a different way. and use the technologies, they're already proven. >> thank you. deputy administrator brown, the pipes act of 2020, requires phmsa to issue safety regulations, the pipeline, to consider in an idled pipeline status by december, 2022, and the pipes act of 2023 follows up on this mandate and requires its completion within 180 days. what is the status of this regulation and when does phmsa

anticipate completing this ruling? >> congressman, we've provided monthly updates on the status. i believe that one is slated for the end of the year, as i stated earlier. we have more rules than we have people working on them. in the pipes act of 2020, and what you're considering will be helpful in getting that rule completed. >> do you believe in updated pipeline rule will increase pipeline safety? >> i think we had some good commentary that addressed that. i've not looked at-- i can't really comment on a rule we haven't written yet. we'd have to layout that justification. >> mr. rorick, the pipes act

with a voluntary system at phmsa. in your perspective, how much would a vis system see from pipeline operators? >> if operated correctly, providing more there's no reach back in a punitive fashion, i believe that companies would actively participate in it. i think this committee was wise to design a program that was modeled after other successful programs like the program that exists for pilots and with the f.a.a. so, i think you would get good participation, sir, if designed appropriately. >> and what pipeline safety outcomes do you envision with the vis system operational? >> we do a look at a lot of

data, technology and this would be incidents and near misses that occur so that we can as an industry and in working with the trends and look at what sort we could gain from those as well. >> thank you. i yield back. >> the gentleman yields. i now recognize mr. menendez for five minutes. >> thank you, chairman. i want to join my colleagues in recognizing the loss of our colleague, donald payne, jr., he was an incredible warrior for the city of newark, the count of essex, the state of new jersey and so many across this country. to me, he was not just a colleague, not just a friend, he was a mentor and a big brother on tni, homeland security and in this institution i'll miss him dearly and trust that our colleague, representative wilson, will do an incredible job picking up the torch and carrying it forward as we'll

all try to do that my friend had done for so long. appreciate that opportunity. today marks three years since the attack on colonial pipeline. this disrupted gasoline and petroleum products across the country. the need for a strong, coordinated effort in key assets and cyber security remains a top priority. and we also have the cyber security subcommittee on the homeland security committee. can you discuss how cyber attacks impacts our pipeline network, and the safety of our pipelines and security of our country overall? >> thank you for the question. i think that cyber security poses more of a risk than safety, and safety in play anytime that the system is

taken over by the operations and it could create unsafe conditions. >> would you want to elaborate on the reliability component that you mentioned. >> i think they could speak to that better than i could. >> thank you very much. and how could congress ensure the safety of our pipeline network, specifically with respect to cyber security? >> sure, there's a lot of best practices out there and again it's beyond the scope of the safety, and it does pose safety risks so we are concerned, but, yeah, i believe there's agencies out there outlining best practices and we'd hope that they're regulated in that way. >> thank you. mr. brown, last time you testified before this committee we discussed phmsa coordination

with other agencies such as tsi and seeking to hire cyber securities despite the lack of jurisdiction over cyber security. how is that in terms of on boarding and hiring cyber security experts? we train the tsa and leadership and cisa, as well as the pipeline sector leadership. we don't have 0 that it might be hearing that space. that's something that we could be on top of even though we don't have direct, and obviously the nexxis really is that a cyber incident can affect operations and have potential to, and mentioned the

colonial both on the start-up and restate on the pipeline, as well as in the current when the pipeline is already operating in that case voluntarily shut down. and we provide that training to the tsa and provide input on their directives and want to work closely as possible or interest to the committee as we consider reauthorizations. >> for future attacks. >> we regulate control room management highly focused operations and so we have robust engagement post colonial pipeline incidents. >> i appreciate that. and thank you, and i yield back. >> the gentleman yields and now recognize will burgess for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman and

i do miss our friend who passed away and i always enjoyed being down and doing one minute and he was always dressed dapper, and told him multiple times, if i had his wardrobe, i would burn mine. so he will be missed. mr. brown, would you agree that pipelines are the safest mode of transportation for natural gas and petroleum products? >> when you factor in the volume of product moved, i would say so. obviously, the discussion here today involved a lot of tragic incidents so for those individuals, it certainly is not. but when you talk about in the context of volume. >> overall, yes, sir, i mean, this is immense number that is moved. would you agree that these pipelines provide a lot of jobs and opportunities for very hard-working americans. >> there are a lot in the sector. >> it's hard work, it's not an easy kind of thing. >> yeah.

>> would you agree with that as well? >> could you repeat that? >> yeah, they shut the door on me and they do that a lot of times on me. would you agree that this is very hard work? >> it's very hard work. i've been up there and we've got the best workers in the world. >> yes, we do and thank you for saying that. >> according to liquid energy pipeline associations, pipelines are the most environmentally protected way to deliver energy. and earlier this year, the biden administration halted new export permits for liquefied natural gas because of climate change. did you or anyone at the department of transportation tell president biden, this was an unwise decision? >> i didn't have any involvement in the pause that the energy recently announced. >> would you say it's not your responsibility at t-dot? >> we do not have any jurisdiction in that space. >> i said t-dot. i'm used to saying that, tennessee department, and

that's where i usually direct my anger at. you served on president biden's carbon dioxide capture force. when the department makes decisions on liquefied natural gas, i hope we put the american people first and not these ridiculous climate initiatives. two minutes and 34 seconds, please, use it wisely. >> the gentleman yields. i now recognize you for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. and thank you for this hearing. start with mr. brown and transition to anyone else would r who would like to address this sort of a good segue from my colleagues. sometimes changing i represent an area in the san francisco bay area that's the densest in terms of hazardous materials because of refineries and chemical plants in the

proximity of one of the few deep water ports of the west coast. so, it's changing and a lot of it is because of our policy in california that i firmly support and have been leading for many years. but we don't focus as much collectively, i don't think, on your issues around the transportation and the refineries and the chemical plants. and i question mr. brown, of those used to be six refineries, there are now five, and one of them shut. two have been shut down for an extended period of time in transition to biofuels as the california renewable portfolio standard continues to be implemented and the market changes in terms of their product. so how do we work with the private sector in anticipate and to your point about resources and transparency, how do we make these numbers as transparent as possible in the oversight and inspections as transparent as possible so that we actually are more efficient as we look at the marketplace

change? not a comment on-- well, our energy resources in california are changing dramatically, we're leading the country and we're proud of that. it's more efficient, if you ask me, separate from the issues of the damage to the planet. so, how does your agency-- and i'll leave these, we have a diverse panel to talk about that, about being fairly agnostic as to what my colleague was just talking about, but also being driven by evidence-based research how we transition and the local community will transition as they see fit, consistent with state statute and again, if you look at a map of the area i represent, there are red lines of hazardous materials all over and compared to rail and truck transport for these facilities and a lot of them think they'll be producing hydrogen for

decades to come and they'll still need the infrastructure. the transition, seems to me, if we get it right, everyone can follow it. if we don't there will continue to be risk to the public and national economy. lastly, as a pacific rim part of the dynamic, our competitors to the-- in china, they change more dramatically than we do and they have certain advantages in their access to raw materials. how do we look at the comparisons and the global changing in terms of transport? we get a lot of our fuel that's refined in the bay area still from the north slope which is very heavy crude and requires transport that's specific to that product, both going can into the plant and coming out of it. >> i couldn't agree more, that trance-- transparency, there's so much

data that wasn't there. voluntarily sharing, we try to report on our website, all of our incident data, enforcement data, which is somewhat unique for government agencies, but also, we recently mapped incidents across the country and we're continuing to do that to provide direct data on the types of incidents that are occurring so that academics or the public can engage in-- i know, the pipeline safety trust has been a big focus of theirs, as part of the authorization, reauthorization legislation and voluntary information sharing system, we're voluntarily tried to create a space for when an incident occurs, a sharing of that information so that other operators can learn from that. i know this same organization provides an audit of companies voluntarily, but basically,

opening, opening the books and sharing information and acknowledging where risks exist helps us all try to tackle those risks collectively. >> could you respond having worked with the western petroleum association and they described it once as a love-hate relationship and may be the latter. your industry is changing a lot. >> we view ourselves as part of the solutions for technical advances for current activities we're doing on oil and natural gas and also in the transition, we're going to be part of that as well. i couldn't agree with the deputy administrator that regular engagement, transparency doesn't mean we agree all the time, but certainly the collaboration and coordination is critical. i think you appropriately identified the interaction, tendency, if you will, if you have on the north slope crew so it has to be more than pipelines, we have to make sure that we recognize the

infrastructure system is complicated and coordination across federal agencies and even between the states is critical as well. and transparency. >> yes, sir. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> the gentleman yields and recognizing for five minutes. >> mr. chairman, and glad referenced the need to share data related to safety concerns. one provision we were able to include in phmsa, and in this body, in a bipartisan way, again this committee produced an outcome and the house of course produced an outcome and we're waiting on the senate to take action, which for many of us, not only concerning, but a consistent waste of time and resources when it's major advancements that need to happen. one provision that we did include that i helped draft in the reauthorization bill passed in december with my colleague, mr. cohen, was the creation of voluntary sharing system that would allow the sharing of

pipeline safety data and we did that with the industry and referenced the value of this kind of sharing of data. i was not going to start with this question, but seems to me if any of the other witnesses could speak to the value of that, it would, i think, highlight the need to move the bill forward. >> so we-- the voluntary information sharing system, we discussed earlier, it could be incredibly valuable if it's designed appropriately. what i mean by that, so long as the information submitted to the federal agencies are protected and then the information is used in such a manner where it would allow companies a level of comfort that that information, there's no reach back authority in a punitive fashion. >> of course. >> then you could get great participation, great data sets to not only look at trends, but identify individual reportings so that we can share the lessons learned more broadly across the industry. >> and i fully agree.

i mean, we do something similar within the american gas association, we have data base that has over 150,000 failures, by government, industry and manufacturers, and we've created a status report about three times a year, showing what we know about failures and it works. so, if this is done correctly, and it gives you this wealth of information that the industry and government can utilize to improve safety. on the other hand, if it's done incorrectly, if there's fines and penalties for the submission, no one is going to submit. >> agreed. and another provision i drafted and we were able to secure on the reauthorization with my colleague, directs phmsa to complete a study in rule making using composite pipe to transport fuels like hydrogen to help complete our climate

goals. can you speak to the potential uses for composite pipe and why it's important to get this rule making accomplished? >> yes, sir. so, as we discussed with the representative, part of the solution going forward and we see hydrogen with a role there. composite pipe has been used for repair jobs and sleeves, et cetera. so there's that piece of technology in particular stands to be of particular benefit as we talk about moving greater quantities of hydrogen. >> thank you both. just to shift gears slightly. i've spend my entire life in the hudson river valley just by birth we're natural resource conservationists, but strikes me as comical those who compose the pipeline for safe transportation for co2 and natural gas and other fuels, given the greenhouse gas emissions are avoided altogether transporting via pipeline rather than more traditional transportation

methods. could you just speak a little to that? i always like to remind my friends back in new york why some of the regulatory restrictions in new york for pipeline and the distribution via pipelines is probably not, not the best policy. >> i'm sorry, could you repeat the question? >> rather than rule making like in states like new york, limit and of course those who oppose the use of pipeline for transportation of co2, natural gas. instead, relying on the alternative, transport options, which usually lead to higher greenhouse gas emissions. >> gotcha, yes. i think you know, there are certainly lower incident rates on pipelines per mile as deputy administrator brown referenced earlier. one thing that gets missed in that data is how devastating a failure can be from a pipeline

just because of the quantity that is released when there is a failure on a pipeline so i think that needs to be taken into account, but my organization works very hard on ensuring the safety of pipelines that are in the ground and making sure that the pipeline that's in someone's back yard is as safe as possible and that the community around it can feel that-- not live in fear of a failure. >> thank you, yield back, mr. chairman. >> the gentleman yields. i now recognize mr. graves who does not serve on this committee, but he was waived on this subcommittee so you have five minutes, good to see you. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you all for being here today. mr. brown, i want to follow up on congressman's question, the national research council did an evacuation looking at different modes of transportation. the congressman asked you a question related to that so i want to make sure i understand.

are pipelines are safest mode of transportation when compared to other modes? >> it's sort of a complicated question, but i think to your point as far as the fewest number of accidents or if you look at the volume you'd say yes, you'd say yes. but to mr. caram's point, the severity of an incident can be tragic and obviously have he -- >> i absolutely -- and compared to truck, train, barge, other things, it's the safest mode of transportation, we should never strive-- we should never stop striving to further and further improve safety, i want to be clear on that. do you agree that the state of california uses oil and gas. yes, i've used it in the state of california. >> i'm not sure i understand why some folks will sit here

and talk about pipelines as a -- this evil whenever their state uses it, science shows, it is the safest mode of transportation. let me be clear. i agree that we need to continue striving, using technology, get better and better at safety and perfecting this, but let's compare this to the alternative. i have was just looking, i pulled up an article just for the city of new york. according to the fire department of new york in to 23, lithium ion batteries caused 270 fires, 150 injuries and 18 deaths that's just in new york, just in 2023. we can't sit here and pretend like by stopping pipelines, that there are all of these other alternatives that are that much better that doesn't include the fact that many of the energy solutions that my friends from california are talking about include mining. they're proven as mr. stauber has talked about, slave labor,

child labor, safety infractions, death, across the globe. so i think we need to be very thoughtful and careful as pretending as though there are all of these better, safer options out there and instead focus on what math and science shows are the safest options and make sure we're continuing to learn from successes and failures and continue to perfect. is that clear? >> that's what our agency does and we regulate the hazardous materials, truck, train, and-- >> the first time said that. mr. rorick, i want to ask you a question, phmsa hasn't made substantial changes in some of the class location regular laces in over 50 years. can you talk a little about how perhaps some updates can result in better safety outcomes? >> yes, sir. the class location rules, the

way they're currently designed in an updated fashion, once a population, a certain population is reached, that companies automatically have to pull the pipelines out regardless whether or not they're safe or they need to be pulled out. first and foremost, we look out for the workers of the communities of which we look for the safety for the communities in which we environment, we operate in, but also for the workers that do our work. so if we can avoid doing work and we don't have to particularly with heavy machinery. we want to do that. secondly, if we can use existing technologies, to maintain the same level of safety and oftentimes find pipelines that don't need to be pulled out and don't need to purge that gas and spend hundreds of millions to pull out, and we can divert to the management programs. lastly, sir, i would say annually the amount of glass that occurs from blowdowns to for pipe replacements, cubic

feet of natural gas a year, the same gas that 10,000 homes would use. >> emissions. could i'm running out of time. could you talk about the in-plant pipelines as opposed to external boundaries? >> when the statute was created it was specific giving phmsa the authority to waive its authority over in-plant piping for liquiditied pipelines, but didn't provide the same clarity for natural gas pipelines. what we hope to see is harmonization so phmsa has the same level. and osha which currently holds authority. >> in some cases regional phmsa managers exercise jurisdiction whenever phmsa has headquarters, essentially. >> yes, sir, and it's starting to create confusion in the industry. >> and mr. chairman, thank you. mr. brown, i'm concerned what

was brought up in the law and i don't think your agency has the discretion to complete something. and when we have a law our citizens don't choose when they comply and don't. i'm out of time, i yield back. >> the gentleman yields. i now recognize mr. johnson for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman and thank you for those. mr. brown, pipelines often are through densely populated areas which become public safety emergencies in the event of a pipeline failure. what option do they have to notify public about risks of pipelines? >> we have a host of requirements we impose on

operators to inform. so, there are signs, signage requirements. there's emergency planning retirements, notification requirements and those, we're constantly updating, i'm sorry, in 2022. further updates as well. and are operators required to hold a meeting after. >> that's something we've taken on when the public has the information when it occurs in their community, we've tried to provide information that we have, but of course, we don't operate the pipeline, we only oversee the operations and that's something that i think that an operator, when there is an incident that affects a community that they should

communicate to the community and give a chance to-- continue to ask those types of questions. >> thank you. mr. caram, the bipartisan pipeline reauthorization bill focuses on the safety of millions of miles of gas and hazardous liquid pipelines that are currently in use and the new pipelines required for hydrogen and carbon dioxide. and the accountability office on the need and ability to create a localized emergency alert system in the event of pipeline accidents. >> what information is needed for first responders when responding to a pipeline incident? >> yeah, you know, the type of pipeline, failed, the product in the pipeline that failed the potential impacted area of that failure, which homes and places could be impacted by that failure, what kind of emergency

efforts are best? is it shelter in place? is it an evacuation? and i think the need for such a system is made even more by co2 pipelines because they can move so far away from a pipeline, the plume, after a failure. because sometimes people should evacuate, sometimes maybe they should shelter in place and it's not kind of a one size fits all. the weather affects which direction it could move things like that. >> is the information needed by first responders that you just outline, is that information always readily available and where is it obtained from? >> it's not always readily available. some of that information about the type of pipeline it is and some physical characteristics of the pipeline and the location can be found on the

national pipeline mapping system. other information that might be particular to that specific failure would not be and first responders would need to rely on communication from the operators to get that kind of information. and i think that the two denbury failures, shows what can happen when that breakdown -- when there's a breakdown there. >> thank you. engaging with communities crucial for outlining safety risk and building trust in pipeline operators and regulators. the pipes of act of 2023, even creates a new office of public engagement to educate local governments, public safety organizations, operators about the pipeline best practices and regulations and the goal is to assure access by facilitating conversations and addressing community concerns. to promote transparency and

accountability, how are you -- how you are able to bridge the gaps-- how are you able to bridge the gaps between industry stakeholders, including public safety officials and smaller companies and local communities? >> well, i think there's -- there's still a big need for public engagement, especially after failures, and i think that phmsa has made some real improvements there over the last few years and has visited communities both after a failure and where there's a proposed new project. and that's been great to see, but i think there's a lot of progress still to be made and there's definitely an appetite for it from the public. >> thank you, and i yield back. >> the gentleman yields. are there any further questions from any members of the committee that have not been recognized? seeing none, this concludes our hearing today and i want to thank you all for being here today. look forward, mr. brown, to any questions that need to be

answered, i hope you'll be timely with that in the next couple of weeks, you should be able to do so. this committee stands adjourned. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] ♪♪ >> will you solemnly swear

that in the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing, but the truth so help you god? >> saturdays watch american history tv, congress investigates. as we explore major investigations in our country's history, by the u.s. house and senate. each week, authors and historians will tell the stories and we'll see the footage from the stories and impact and legacy from key congressional hearings. this week on the iran-contra affair, the sale of missiles to iran and lebanon proceeds going to nicaragua. watch 7 p.m. eastern on c-span 2. >> the house will be in order. >> this year c-span celebrates 45 years of covering congress like no other. since 1979 we've been your primary source for capitol hill

providing balanced coverage of government. all with the support of america's cable companies. c-span, 45 years and counting. powered by cable. >> we take you live now to the u.s. senate where today members are continuing work on a measure to reauthorize funding for the federal aviation administration for another five years, ahead of friday's renewal deadline. the legislation would increase the number of air traffic controllers and require the f.a.a. to use new technology designed to prevent collisions on runways. you're watching live coverage on c-span2. ... the presiding officer: the senate will come to order. the chaplain, dr. barry black, will lead the senate in prayer. the chaplain: let us pray.