important. they go back to the antimoney laundering unit in the back office, but it's something that goes on a lot of times and customers don't even know it. they find out later on when they get indicted. they don't always. it literally means suspicious activity. activity the bank finds suspicious. so that's an interesting piece of information to me. but it's not something that michael cohen would have even known about if there ever was a sar filed against him. >> the color are from inside the courtroom is this is necessary, but dull testimony to authenticate the documents mangle this prosecution wants to admit as business records. and yet she says the jurors are surprisingly attentive. that's going to do it for me today. thank you very much for sticking around for the hour. "deadline: white house" starts right now.

hi, everyone. happy friday. we're monitoring the ongoing criminal trial of donald trump. we're on day iegt eight of of this election interference hush money trial. today brought the introduction of websites number two and three for the prosecution. right this moment, the prosecution is questioning gary farro. he was michael cohen's banker at first republic bank. he set up the home equity line of credit through which michael cohen paid stormy and was reimbursed by donald trump. it's the financial transaction that's at the heart of all of this. the second witness was a woman by the name of rona graph. you may not know the name, but she was in the room for jirs about everything. she's donald trump's long-time assistant. she worked at the trump organization for 34 years. she also noted that she was on

the stand because she had been subpoenaed and that the trump organization is paying for her attorneys. in a very brief line of questioning from the prosecution, alvin bragg's team had her authenticate e-mails and contacts for stormy daniels and karen mcdougal. graph said she had a vague recollection of seeing stormy daniels in the reception area of her office before donald trump was running for president. in cross-examination from donald trump's lawyer, graph also the said she recalled hearing about how stormy daniels, who she knew at the time was a porn star, was under consideration to be a contestant on the celebrity apprentice. today's day in court began with the former national inquirer ceo david pecker finishing his testimony. trump's team continued its cross-examination of pecker. at times, it was contentious. pecker reterated at the end of that cross-examination he was being truth tofl the best of his recollection. when questioned again by the

prosecution, pecker confirmed that while he coordinated hundreds of thousands of nondisclosure agreements during his tenure at ami, he indicated that, quote, the only one he did for a presidential candidate's campaign was the one he did for donald trump. and he repeated that he bought the story of karen mcdougal's affair with donald trump for the purpose of influencing the outcome of the 2016 election. that's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. we have a full table today. we expect heilemann to come screeching in at any moment, but for now, top official at the department of justice and msnbc legal analyst adrew weisman is back with us. is and a special treat for both of us at the table, special correspondent for the hollywood reporter lockland cartwright is here. he worked with david pecker at.

at the courthouse is vaughn hillyard. we start with you. i heard you tell the story to my colleague joy reid last night. talk me inside this "wall street journal" story. remind us why it was so important and tell us the role you had in it. it kale up for a second time today. >> another surreal moment where i'm reliving this past life of where i was the executive editor of the inquirer. it was flushed out to the jury today. this story the "wall street journal" wrote on the eve of the election. i had a phone call from a reporter. he said someone from the investigative team has come across and we need your help. do you know anything about a woman named karen mcdougal. dillon was the former editor this chief, he was only sitting a little away from me. i said i'll call you back.

i went down on the elevator and i said i'm going to risk everything if i am helping you. and just so you know, david pecker and dylan will ruin me. i knew if i used an old school tabloid term, it would give me some cover. i said this was a catch and kill. he said to me, what's a catch and kill. and i wept on to drab this practice. it's been detailed in court this week of buying a story off the market and burying it to benefit someone, in this case it was donald trump. i wept back to my office and was sweating and dylan raced in. he said, the "wall street journal" has a story coming. he blamed two former employees. then i went to a favorite sushi place of of mine and sat back and waited. at 9:00 p.m. they broke that. and the third graph was the phrase catch and kill tribing it as an old tabloid practice. >> why did you do that? >> i had a moment where i felt

this was the right thing to do. i had over several months leading up to this a crisis is of conscious about what was going on and what i was apart of. and it's just seemed like the moment to get this story out into the public domain. as a journalist, it's the kind of story i want to break. it seemed like a matter of public interest. it seemed consequential. i thought if i use this term, it might give me some cover. it thankfully did, but in that moment, i needed to help get this across the line. >> it's so central to what trump's legal team has tried to do. they tried to malign pecker and the entire industry, but your crisis of conscious and the behaviors and the pattern and practice with trump and pecker was different. that's what pecker got through when he had a chance to be questioned by prosecutors. this was different because, one,

the transactions were different. they were huge sums. he said dramatically, i'm not a bank. that's where the financial transaction comes in. he reiterated this again today. this was for the purpose of impacting the election. >> that's key here. that's absolutely crucial to what the prosecutors are aligning up here. which is this conspiracy, this election interference, which i have been stressing this since i wrote the piece about a bugger picture here that there's 34 counts of falsifying business records. the arnold schwarzenegger situation came up. this was practice with celebrities. and it was. there were other catch and kills. but in this case, it was clear what was going on here was to help get donald trump elected. >> what was it like to watch pecker cross examine? to me, it felt like, well, we can't get you on the facts because you claim to be his friend, we'll try to embarrass

you personally. >> embarrass you and undermine your recollection. they are really going in on the meeting that happened in august of 2015. if hope hicks was there or wasn't there and they were trying to pick away at him, but i i watched him for the last four or five days. he did a pretty good job. i think that he was very convincing. obviously, the i know the story well and invested that ways others aren't, be i looked over at the jury several times when the defense were going for him, and they didn't seem that swayed. >> what did you think? >> i had a question about the what bothered you. when we were talking about it yesterday, we were reacting to the defense cross-examination, which tried to be usual practice. there's catch and kill that's going on with celebrities. ask this is just everyone does it. it happens all the time. and it seemed to be that what was different here is because

i'm a lawyer, i look at this from a legal perspective. it maybe heinous to have a catch and kill, but that's not illegal. but this was about violating election laws because you either are giving money, actual money or you're giving in kind help that is prohibited by the outset of new york state law. ands in terms of what bothered you, was it that piece of it? >> that was the corruption. the fact that we went from running tabloid fair into becoming a propaganda machine. they turned this into a criminal enterprise to get donald trump elected. and i i didn't sign for that. i didn't leave to be part of it. and as we went further into just an absolute crazy town of these colors, which we have seen highlighted, ted cruz is bad,

and every piece we were running about hillary and her health, i was sitting back going this is not what i got into this for. there were multitude of reasons that i made the decision to help. that was key. >> vaughn hillyard, you're down there where all this is going down still. jump in on this idea of what the prosecution was able to sort of carve out in terms of david pecker as a narrater of the ways it was extraordinary. it you had a different read, it seems what the defense has been doing is talking ab how this was ordinary. everybody did it. jump in on that. >> right. that's where ultimately when they were able to redirect after the defense had their four hours of cross-examination and they were able to pretty effectively muddy some waters around why back in 2018 when federal

investigators were looking into this here, fbi agents had seized his phone. all the at the same time that media was trying to sell off the national inquirer and other publications. they were trying to apply to the jury that david pecker had motivations to give federal investigators whatever they want theed. and ultimately agreed to that immunity deal in order to be not prosecuted so they could effect you havely sell off the national inquirer and he would not be the target. that's what they tried to paint here over the course of the jury. then this afternoon when david pecker took the stand and answered under that redirect, again, the prosecutors were able to hone in and get him to affirm some very crucial points. number one being that he testified to the fact that, yes, the reason that american media puchased the rights to karen mcdougal's story was to influence the 2016 election. that was the reason. they also got him to testify that the january of 2017 meeting at trump tower between david

pecker and donald trump, that trump had, in fact, thanked him for purchasing the rights to not only the karen mcdougal story, but also the doorman story really setting up the point that donald trump's intention before the 2016 election was to subvert having these stories get out to the public to influence the election. another part he was able to affirm was the fact this afternoon that michael the cohen was himself furious and told him that the boss would be angry when he reported back to him that american media would not purchase that third story. the stormy daniels story. so this afternoon effectively the prosecutions was able to lay out to the jury that david pecker, despite all of the testimony around questions and whether this is normal or not, the prosecution agreement, all that aside, the crux of this is that donald trump. ed to keep these stories silent because of the 2016 election. >> vaughn, after pecker

finished, they called rona graph. >> reporter: she was able to authenticate physical address, but the phone numbers she had cataloged for karen mcdougal, but also she had a contact under, quote, stormy, with a phone number. she testified she could make stormy daniels had visited trump tower. and that there was chatter that she could potentially be a celebrity apprentice herself,

which matches up with storm yes daniels' statements that donald trump the night that they had sex told her that he would follow about her potential thely appearing on "celebrity apprentice." gary farro was the banker that worked with michael cohen, who is currently on the stand right now. there's a particular e-mail pack in 2016 two weeks before the election where he acknowledged transferring money into an account. there was operated i by michael cohen and able for the prosecution to verify some of of the documents and e-mails in these accounts that have been set up to allegedly have transferred this there are 130,000 to the attorney who had been representing stormy daniels. >> stay with us. i want to bring you in. i want to talk about all the new titles and roles and assignments. i first want the to soto show you what was said to chris matthews about who rona is. >> who do you think trump fears

most? >> rona graph. his personal secretary, she knows everyone. she knows the role they play. she knows who said what with, she set up the meetings. if she's called to testify, that would be the end of donald trump. >> do you worry about her? >> i wouldn't be surprised if she pled the fifth. she's been fiercely loyal to the president. >> she's there under subpoena. >> who at this table doesn't know the power of the long-time assistant? like the last person you want to testify against you is your long-time assistant. it could be interesting. i came in though, every time over the course of this part of the trial, we get people that are what did you expect? this is what the defense is playing to was of course, the catch and kills are all over the place. stories are bought and sold. and you hear lockwood talking

about his outrage at the fact that the newsroom had been turned into a criminal enterprise to advance the president's political interest. i think some people roll their eye when is they hear that sort of thing. i will say that among political journalists, you know this is true, that over the years up to 2016, all of us who were savvy about this looked at the national inquirer and thought we took those stories seriously. there was a lot of reasons why. unlike any ideological bias, their attitude was there's two things we care about. selling papers and getting big stories. john edwards campaign, not just because they knew that a lot of what was in the inquirer was right, but there were a lot of political journalists were like, this is like they are saying the six pages. we were looking at those stories going, they have something.

and i can tell you that if it weren't for this arrangement, these stories, the stormy danielss stories, they would have. the things that david pecker was all over like a dog on a bone. these are election year stories. stories that often turned out to be true. the edwards example is only one. but the communications person that you know lived in fear of a call from the national inquirer because you can't wave that off. you'd be like, uh-oh. >> it maybe other arms of a campaign that looks down their nose. i think the fist time we talked, i grew up and this dates me, but standing in line with the grocery store with my mother. i knew when the covers changed.

to you think that some of the underestimating the power of these facts and fact witnesses was part of this view about trump or people just didn't understand where all the power came from? it was a powerful tool. >> it was. just to that point. that is the reason i went there. that was for he to go there. and i'm sitting in court the last few days. as they are going through the stormy story and the doorman, if we had broken these stories, we have would have doll nated the election. we would have sold thousands of copies of magazines and we wouldn't be in this position. but that publication, it was weaponized. it's on newsstands in every supermarket, in every airport, and that cover, even if someone did you want pick it up to see hillary, six months to live,

that real estate is absolutely priceless. people at this table have been around politics long enough. . campaigns do favors for candidates. as to media organizations do favors for candidates. but media organization, as far as i have seen, hasn't twisted itself into a propaganda machine to get a candidate elected like what happened here with the national inquirer. >> just at that point about the newsstand is important because in a world now, we don't have newsstands anymore. we have very little media that everyone shares. the grocery store, a lot of swing states where people walk by the counters. >> just this week at walmart. where is dylan howard? >> that's a very good question. it has a lot of people asking and wondering. we were this court on monday. it was introduced via david pecker, who said he hasn't spoken to him for some time, but said he has a spinal injury.

he's in australia. my understanding is he's in mel bourn. i know there's a lot of journalists chasing him right now, which is kind of a twist on dylan howard's career when he's been hunting down people. and so give him the benefit of the doubt there's this spinal issue, but that's why he's not here, although his attorney is issuing these long witness statements to people. >> we wish him the best with his spinal challenges. no one is going anywhere for the whole hour. we'll sneak in a quick break. when we come back, more on exactly what went down in court today. and how hope hicks factored in david pecker's cross-examination. was it an effort to cast aspersion on her testimony before it even happens? a lot more news coming up as the first criminal trial of an american ex-president continues here in new york city on day eight. don't go anywhere. rk city on day eight. don't go anywhere.

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we're all back. andrew, i want you to pick up on something that vaughn is reporting about the michael cohen's banker on the stand. talk about the financial transaction being introduced. >> big picture, when you have people like rona dprks raff and gary farro, this is how trials get made. you have big witnesses like david pecker, and then you have a lot of the connective tissue. and it seems kind of dull, and

this isn't made for tv. this is made for a jury and it's how you build a case piece by piece. so as you mentioned with an executive secretary, i'm sure there's lots she knows, but she was there to prove there was a karen mcdougal. you can't deny it. there it is. another witness close to donald trump. for this piece, that has to do with the opening up of essential consulting. it really fits with what you heard is david pecker is like the national inquirer, we're the bank for the doorman. but you know what? at that point, there's a lawyer that gets involved and we are no longer the bank. and that means they had a problem. if you're donald trump, how do we silence the next person because we felt the bank is

closed. so who is the new bank. not something that you have a lot of lawyers on this show. i'm one of them. not something we do to this is abnormal. that's where having lawyers on the jury, that will help. and so this is going to be about the creation at the essential the consulting lls, the timing of the creation, what michael cohen says about it and the timing is right after the "access hollywood" tape comes out. the actual wire according to the opening, the wire of the money from michael cohen through essential consulting happens on october 26th right after two phone calls between michael cohen and donald trump. so that's a boring part of the case where you hear about a wire, you hear about phone

records, you have all of this connective tissue, it's going to come back and close it. >> vaughn, let me read you some of the questioning. these are from notes, it's not technically a transcript, but this is what we understand happened. a series of mails, and we're try toggle get these as soon as we can to show our viewers what the jury saw. we don't have those yet, but the jury saw a series of e-mails dated thursday, october 13th, 2016, from farro to his team. he needs an account opened immediately and wants no traes on the checks. i guess that's also not normal. the question, was it unusual for michael cohen to want something done immediately? no. was it unusual to ask for no address on the checks. he says not really, folks who open llcs don't want their address used then they show a document showing resolution consultants. after much back and forth, they

describe how the consultant's account was never funded pep then on october 26th, 2016, the witness on the stand now received an e-mail from his assistant saying michael cohen needed him to call him. michael cohen stated he was changing course. he didn't want to open resolutions. he wanted to open a new account. was there any sense of urgency? any time he spoke to me, he conveyed a sense of urgency. question, was this one of those times. answer, this was one of those times. this seems like in addition to the documents entered in, this is also just like the january 6th select committee did, layer upon layer of the motive. the motive was the political fallout after the hack sets holt bhi live wood tape kale out. >> october 13th is when that was created.

this was less than a week after the tape was released and became public. then october 26th, two weeks before the election, was just talking with the team here, you have been a part of presidential campaigns. i have covered a litany of them now. usually the focus two weeks out of a presidential campaign just standard is usually not setting up quickly llcs and running across the street to meet with your banker to set up accounts and get checks that do not include addresses and claim to be for real estate. obviously, they were not intended for real estate purposes here. this is just not normal. and gary farro coming in from the banking aspect is clearly a credible individual in the eyes of the jury here. we should note that we just got word from the judge that court has ended for the week. this is going to be the first weekend that these 18 jurors are

going to be going home to family and friends they have been given the instructions to not talk about this case at all despite them having heck of a week inside the courtroom. >> i know you write about it, but bring us inside this day, this time period of october 26th. >> we're heading into the election, so it's incredibly chaotic. we are continuing to produce these covers and the intention is really by this stage that we're done with the bulk of the hit pieces, but we've got one or two still left. a hitman was back up a second, a person who alleged that they were hillary's bag man and a cover was done up as hulls ri hit mantle us. so that story was produced around that timeline.

and then subsequent to that on the eve of the election, howard comes to me and says david pecker has purchased a dots area. he spent thousands of dollars to a private investigator who had done bug sweeps and these e-mails, i need you to help get them translated. this is going to be the cover for the last edition, which will go out as the election is happening. i remember thinking why if what they were reported to be. and the e-mails are in italian and we have get these students to come in and translate them in the way that howard told me is this private investigator, who had kxs with the intelligence, had got them from his contacts there. so we had to madly get them translated. and then david pecker decree, that would be the last cover as the election is happening it was that type of just chaotic just

bizarre after another. >> we have talked so much about what was buried for trump, but i remember the hillary covers reaching the crescendo after the 9/11 event that she went to. the national inquirer, correct me if i'm wrong, went crazy with her health. that was it. >> we used that photo as a device to play up the fact that the thought that there was some issues with her health. >> so the election interference, and i don't know this is ill a legal point, but the election interference t you look back from what we spent our careers doing, it's not just what was suppressed to not the bars trump. it was what was amplified about hillary clinton that you never get back. >> there's also the if you follow the headlines, the

photos, the memes, what we know later is that a lot of these ideas after the september 11th thing when she collapsed, there were all these stoies there was a spike around the hillary health stories. reasonably, if you look at the data on media mentions, people focused on that. what happened then was those stories went away for a long time. i'm not talking about the inquirer, i'm talking about around the could be country. then pegged to nothing, she didn't have another health incident. all of a sudden in michigan and wisconsin and pennsylvania and a lot of swing districts, suddenly on facebook, russian disinformation that was borrowing ideas that had been put in the bloodstream by the inquirer and others came back. hillary has parkinson's, she's got the epipen she was taking. all made up. all of that russian fits information in the same way that people would laugh about the

fact that paul manafort gave the russians the names of donors that anybody could find out, these ideas get into the bloodstream. she ps collapsed on 9/11. places like the inquirer blow that up into a massive health crisis she's dying. hillary is dying two months later comes back in a really targeted way in critical cities, counties, districts in swing states. and you can trace that back. is that all the national inquirer's fault, no, but there's a conveyer belt of ideas that end up being really pivotal to the outcome of the election when donald trump ends up winning a lot of those states. a lot of people came out like, hillary is dying. we all know that. >> it's just for those of us who studied elections and what ends up in the water, it's just something to reckon with. >> it's for history.

>> it's a local issue when the news outlet is doing it for money and incoordination. if you are in coordination saying, okay, we're going to give in kind contributions and not just in kind in terms of negative information about adversaries, but we're going to pay money. there's cash that actually was spent. you are going to hear the da say, this evidence, what david pecker said on the stand, if you believe it is a state election crime. they will say it's a federal election crime. they only need one. and then they will have corroborating evidence for what david pecker is saying. >> no one is going anywhere. more when we come pack. we'll continue to talk about what happened on the witness

stand today and what it tell us about how team trump may go after one of trump's closest advisers, someone he told other staffers to dye their hair so they could emulate her. we're talking about hope hicks. don't go anywhere. t hope hicks don't go anywhere. (woman) ugh, of course it stops loading at the best part. (tony hale) i wasn't eavesdropping, yes i was. you need verizon. get their crazy powerful network out here, and get six months of disney bundle on them! and it is all good. (vo) that's right, stream on the go, with six months of disney bundle on us. all your favorite content from hulu, disney plus and espn plus is all yours, and watch it all on the new galaxy s24+, also on us. only on verizon.

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how do i get my raised beds looking so good? i do have a secret, a very special secret. it's organic soil from miracle-gro. you're great too, ryan. not as great as the soil, though. okay... you said it. [ryan laughs] we are all back. vaughn hillyard just reporting

that trump's criminal election interference hush money trial hz wrapped for the week. it will pick up tuesday. we're back with vaughn, john, andrew, let me bring you in on what happened in court today. it seemed like an effort to preimpeach the testimony on the record from david pecker about hick's presence and in and out of the 2015 trump tower meeting. talk about the significance of that. >> reporter: right. the defense team for donald trump went and was asking about that august 2015 meeting between michael cohen, donald trump and pecker after pecker testified that hope hicks was in on the meeting. they got pecker to acknowledge that she did not directly contribute or talk during the course of the meeting, but made her way in and out. this was sort of the picture of hope hicks and what role she played in 2015 and 2016.

i think we have to look at her this that way ahead of her expected testimony before this very jury. she was 27 years old. i was covering the gop race. it was hope hicks that would fly with donald trump. throughout 2016, even when steve bannon came on with the team, hope hicks was still that one constant on what was a very small team of confidants. and hope hicks was a political novice. you'd e-mail for a comment and usual thely she'd e-mail back with a short statement or no comment, but unlike most campaigns you'd be able the to pick up the phone and have a conversation with them back and forth. she was a political novice brought on as a former model that worked with donald trump previously. this was the person who was at

the heart of these conversations. and the heart of these meetings being on omnipresent at all times. all the way up to the point that during that transition period after the surprise victory in november of 2016, i was covering that transition when folks would come and go. she would help shepard people up and down the elevators. i remember going downstairs there was a cafe at the bottom of trump tower there. as i was checking out, she was cordial and kind, but she was also professional. she was protective of donald trump. she was somebody who would not in an off the record fashion go talking about what was happening on the inside and instead she was somebody who was very much opt of a confidant and she continued to serve in that capacity well into the white house. they testified that she was in 2018 still involved in conversations along with sarah huckabee sanders about how to extend karen mcdougal's contract

so she wouldn't talk publicly about her relations with donald trump. >> i think this is trump's biggest trigger. cassidy hutchens sat and saud she was told to dye her hair to look like hopes. she was a daughter figure. she was all those things and more to trump. she is on the likely witness list. >> in that period of time, i was a fair amount. but if you'd asked as a statement of fact who are the names that came out of'dth's mouth more often in private settings, casual settings, but when he was in his office backstage at a political event, the two names were hope and rona. you didn't hear him talk about paul manafort. i'm not saying he never mentioned it, but paul manafort,

steve bannon, those names did not tulable out of trump's mouth. he would invoke rona and hope dozens of times a day, often in the same breath. they were the people who had the most access to him. the one who is ran his life in different respects, one more administrative, one more in politics, but i think she will be a fascinating witness. she has -- she occuied and may still, but certainly then occupied an incredibly important place psychically for him and had access to things that even rona, who was more mechanically involved in where is he going, what is he doing, who does he have to answer to, hope is more at that nexus where politics, scandal, law, staff, internal politics were involved and came together in communications.

she knows better than literally anybody. >> it seemed that the defense team spent a lot of time today trying to impugn david pecker's memory when it came to hope's presence in that meeting. >> memory and a not so subtle he's a liar that didn't colt out and say it. >> you're right. >> testifies is entitle odd to try to do that to say here's truths from column a he doesn't remember well, or he's a liar. that's defense job is to do that. you have to remember they also know very much what she's going say. it's really important. in sol ways this is a little bit of theater in that the parties have full statements from everyone. they have been in the grand jury. they have what are called 302s. they have been interviewed by the fbi. that's the form they fill out.

they have interview notes of state investigators. so both sides are operating with a sort of full picture, so they know how much she's going corroborate or what where she doesn't back him up. one thing that's really interesting is the defense correctly as witnesses are on tries to say you think donald trump was a great boss. they did that with rona. yes, for 34 years, and they try to get good information. you saw the prosecution do that with david pecker because it was useful to say this guy who is such a liar, he love this is guy. it will be interesting where hope hicks is on this because there was both a deep loyalty and then there was a very rocky end. and so it will be interesting who asks those questions about the sort of is he really a good

guy. so i think that will be a bit of of a tell as to what each side is thinking about where her loyalies are and how much she's just decided i better just tell the truth. >> i this he called her hopy. she was in on information you didn't have access to. >> that's correct. and it was someone that was in the orbit of the characters that next to howard's office and michael cohen is on the phone doing this operation with the toorman. and i'm thinking to myself, why is michael cohen constantly calling. we haven't even gone for comment yet. and we had in place a reporter trying to stake out the woman in involved and she was in her mid-20s. we haven't got to a situation where anyone from the trump organization should have been alerted to the story or engaged, but yet howard was talking to michael cohen. i assumed was asking for

updates, which further goes to the scheme the and the people in place that were talking to the inquirer at the time. >> tell me when you figure out, tell me between which stories and which parts you touch that you figure it out that something smelled. >> the doorman happens. and where he sits for the polygraph, but he's passing for something he heard secondhand. i'm still in the mind the story is probably not true, but we haven't gone through all the reporting yet. but then the word comes to stand down. and then david pecker has decided we're going to pay him $30,000, which was highly unusual. it was a large sum of money. then there was a clause that was later installed. both of those i can't stress were unusual. >> the norm was? >> thousands of dollars to sign a source up or to buy someone's

story. not $30,000. >> what about the million dollar penalty clause if there's a breach? >> incredibly unusual to put that in place. most contracts don't have a clause like that. the other thing that's unusual is all sources are paid post publication. they are paid when the story had run in the magazine. and david pecker watched every dollar. there was a $10,000 limit we had to spend on stories. anything more had to go to david pecker's office and they had to get that approval. so that situation happens. i'm thinking, okay, this is miss bizarre. it gets more and more chaotic as we're generating more and more of these hit pieces. pit can't stress how much time is going into these covers because david pecker has to critique them we're learning they were going off to the campaign to michael cohen who was coming back with suggestions and additions. but for me, in august of 2016,

dylan howard tells me about a woman by the name of karen mcdougal that he's gone out to los angeles and interviewed and finds her story credible. i'm sitting there going, great, when are we breaking this? what do you need me to do? how can we get this up? he says we're not running it. and david pecker has made the decision to buy it for $150,000 to protect donald trump. and i think that was one of those moments where i was just like, where al i -- this is going to take me down with it. i thought my career is baically going to be over because of all of this. and my working relationship with dylan, that was the beginning of the end. >> we have to sneak in a break. i do want the to dpet your thoughts on how explicitly grateful trump was to david pecker. >> fundamental. >> i want to bring all that back. the panel sticks around.

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intimacy in terms of a friendship among men. and i just keep thinking presidents have dinners sometimes for veterans or historians or heads of state. >> trump declared all of the rest of the press, all of us, a means of the people in a first maybe glib way, but later in ways that put targets on people's backs. that's his attitude towards the press. we know that in periods of time, he's craved the establishment press. he's sucked up to the "new york times" in various ways. 2017 period with the transition, the thing i most remember was going to the office of vanity fair and it to try to see if they would like him. then when everyone in his view rejected him, he called it in. who was the one person he's ever done anything with this kind of

affection. with this kind of loyalty. there's no one else. there's no one else. i think that's telling. does that get you a guilty verdict? probably not, but the jury comes out understanding this is not a normal relationship between a presidential candidate/president and the head of the a tabloid. there's something teep here. >> it's not even a crime to have that kind of precipitate. but it's a person he was that close to that detailed the criminal enterprise. >> the credbility came through. if it you thought this was a sleazy dude. the detail of it and the emotional bond that was laid bear makes you think he maybe a scoundrel, but he's probably telling the truth. >> it's too early to say this is where the jury will be. they will definitely take the judge's instructions, do not deliberate until the end. however, trials are about

narratives. and there was a very clear narrative from the state here as to what happened it sort of hangs together and makes sense they will see in the state oes job is to put in the details but this is a very clear story. it pit asked you what was the clear narrative of the defense cross, there was no story. >> there was some jabs. >> as we were talking about yesterday, if you're smart, it doesn't hang together as a story. it's like, oh, he misremembered on this day a name. >> you need a counternarrative. what you really want is a counternarrative. there was no counternarrative. >> exactly. >> that's because by the end of it, the jury will have heard a lot of witnesses. but we'll see. the jury will decide. john heilemann, thank you for spending the hour with us.

congratulations on your new jobs. >> thank you. >> your podcast is moving. >> i'm going to be writing about all of you. >> can we still swear on the podcast? >> everybody is like, hey, you're restarting the podcast. you have to get her to drop f bombs. done. >> done. >> vaughn hillyard, thank you for your reporting. andrew and lockland stick around. they will be joined by two friends in court. sue craig will be back with her notebook. harry litman will make an a rare appearance at the table. also one of the officers on the front lines on january 6th. he will be here on this continued quest for accountability. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. ty a quick break for us we'll be right back. ght in ensure max protein with 30 grams of protein! those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. -ugh. -here, i'll take that. woo hoo! ensure max protein, 30 grams protein, 1 gram sugar, 25 vitamins and minerals. and a new fiber blend with a prebiotic. (♪♪)

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hi, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. donald trump's trial came to a close today with a punctuation mark in the form of two new witnesses in the last hour. the jury heard from gary farro, who was in 2016 a senior managing director at the first republic bank. he allegedly helped set up that home equity line of credit through which michael cohen paid stormy daniels. and just before farro testified,

rona graff was on the stand. she was his former assistant. she finished her testimony. her inside knowledge, her tuitts, her access to trump made her a central figure this donald trump's inner circle and a nex us is in his most private matters. her testimony followed a busy morning with donald trump's attorneys seeking to discredit parts of david pecker's testimony in the eyes of the jury by trying to poke holes in his credibility and/or memory. after they wrapped up cross-examination, the prosecution got to question him again in a redirect, another opportunity to ask questions of the same witness. alvin bragg's team cut to the heart of the case in their questioning of david pecker. simple question from that prosecutor, quote, is that true, mr. pecker, was that your purpose in locking up the karen mcdougal story, to influence the

election? the answer from david pecker, quote, yes. he added, the actual purpose was to acquire lifetime rights so it was not published by any other news organization. pecker said it was standard to suppress stories to help a friend or to use as leverage with a celebrity, this was catch and kill in order to influence a presidential election. now with court adjourned for the weekend, it's all systems go as we head into next week with key testimony still ahead. this is where we start the hour with some of our most favorite reports and friends. two people inside the courtroom today, investigative reporter susan craig and former u.s. attorney and former deputy assistant attorney general harry litman. lucky for us, andrew is still here as is lockland. sue, we start with you and your wonderful notebook. >> i have to say i think the

most interesting part of today was the contination of that agreement that karen mcdougal had. donald trump's lawyers really tried to muddy the water on it. put some poison in the ear that karen mcdougal got something for the money she was paid she got a cover of a magazine and wrote some articles. then it really was payment for service. and on redirect when the government's lawyers got back up, they really went and read the testimony just full stop. david pecker was calm, cool and just said, no, she may have got something, but this was a payment to silence her to keep her off the market. >> wouldn't her main service be the story? if you're in the business of a huge story, we have between the two of you, the perfect group. but wouldn't that be the main way if there wasn't this private agreement wouldn't the main

reason that somebody would want this is not because somebody who used to work for playbook boyer boyer is going to write a story that she has to say about a relationship for ten months. >> there was actually a great moment because there was another point where donald trump's lawyers got up and david pecker was asked about karen mcdougal. and they said is she a celebrity. there was a long pause because she's not. and they kept going along that. it was really funny. she's not somebody that you'd put on the cover of the national inquirer. nobody would know who she is. she was famous in some circles, but not david pecker circles. fz. >> when when i was told about this in august of 16, there's no mention of i just hired this fitness columnist and we're going to move magazines. i'm going to be instructed to

get those columns going after they told the "wall street journal" that we now need to produce these columns. that's when i get the ghost rider in. and that's when we actually have to stop running the column. so there's no suggestion. we have paid karen mcdougal because she's going to be the cover star and giving you the best. >> there's a contractual suggestion that that's what it is. that was one of the things that was so effective on reredirect, which is that pecker, who was oddly credible. he's a scoundrel, but they put the fear of god in him he was an affable scoundrel giving it all up. he made it very clear. this would have been for the reasons andrew says, a valuable article for the inquirer to run in its own rights, but they weren't going to do it because

they had one reason reasons. that was the most effective part of the bridge they built to storm you daniels, who is coming pretty soon. >> i have seen her with koop anderson cooper a couple times. she talks about her love for him and his love for her. what kind of story would that have been? >> that's the difference in the manner. stormy is a one night terrorist. karen mcdougal had a months long relationship. yes,s was in love with donald trump. so dylan said the story is credible. and that's when i thought we'll break this and this will be the biggest scoop of the election. it would have been. we had a sit-down interview with a playboy play mate telling at her love for donald trump while he was a married man. >> what she believed was his love for her. here's how she described, and i want to ask you how this would have figured into the article. the logistics.

>> when you say you arranged to go some place, how would it be arranged? >> i would pay for the flight. i would book it myself. i would book the hotel room, if i wasn't staying with him. usually i stayed with him, but there's been a couple times i didn't. then he would reill burs me. if the flight was $500 he would give me $500 and say take care of the flight and things like that. >> why would he have you book all the travel and the hotel room? >> there's no paper trail. >> did you realize that at the time? >> yes, i did. >> because he was concerned about it being revealed at some point and there being a paper trail? >> i was told there was no paper trail. pit can't say what his reasons were, but i would assume that's the case, yes. >> so back to your point. this was a long-term relationship that she would have

told, and lots of meets. maybe the person at the table who read the most that seems like the bread and butter of the kinds of stories. >> that is manner from heaven. that's the type of cover that we would have sold millions of potentially and would have owned the news agenda for weeks. that was already made for us if it wasn't for this deal that we are hearing about that occurred in august of 2015. to puchase the negative stories of the market. the reason went there was to break big stories like this in the lead up to the election and not have them gone from the market. >> can you quantify how much it would have been worth to the national inquirer to have that cover story that seems like the kind of story that every new detail might have been another story? >> we would have been running this for weeks and weeks and weeks and not just in the

magazine. we would have rolled it out in our digital properties. it's hard to give an exact figure, with us it would have been the biggest story that the national inquirer had broken since the john edwards matter. it would have been the biggest story for the inquirer in several years. >> he called it inquirer gold. >> the numbers we have to work with brauz it's a fraud trial are misleading. i come from the world of politics. in the world of politics, this was an invaluable contribution to trump's efforts. >> he was going through huge financial problems. i'm wondering what dylan said when he said i have this incredible story about karen mcdoogal and this affair. how did he explain it was going to be in the paper? >> that was something that i was mentioning earlier. he said, i have gone out to los angeles and interviewed this story. i find her credible.

and i'm waiting for her to say, all right, i'm waiting for him to say this is when i need your help to break this story. and instead he said, david pecker made a decision to pay her $150,000 and that story is never going to see the light of day. >> we were on the subway for that. >> and i'm sitting there going, in what world would we not run this story. it was just this moment i just thought this is going to end my career. >> i want to bring this in. here's some of the interactions with pecker and cohen. >> so when she believed that ami was not fulfilling the terms of that deal, she was upset and we scheduled a meeting with ami. we went and met with david pecker and it was an incredible meeting. and there were even further

promises that were made to her at that meeting. so the situation actually became worse, not better. and that was really a great source of frustration for everyone involved in our side. >> and when we know now what david pecker allegedly admitted to with prosecutors in the southern district, working with cohen to protect the president, there was a phrase he used, and something he's told karen at that lunch that you said in our interview. >> he said thank you very much. i wanted to-out of respect, i wanted to dpt you here in new york. i. ed to look you in the eye and have a face to face meeting. i want to thank you very much and thank you for your loyalty. >> thank you for your loyalty. they couldn't come up with another way of saying. >> they have a problem if you're on the defense. there's no way that you can argue there was no catch and kill agreement. it's too documented. so you have to argue it had nothing to do with the election.

ask that's what it's like good luck with that. >> cohen went to jail because it had everything to do with the election. >> and the tiing of it is -- this is one where this is where you're going to use your kmons that a timeline is going to put together for the jury. they can't say there was no agreement. this is not -- she was not being hired for work. and it makes no sense why her story wouldn't be run. so they have to be be able to say this had nothing to do with the election this is normal catch ask kill stuff. and that is where you're going to have a lot of contrary evidence in the timeline just not work. the narrative is right now on the state side. you're not hearing a coherent story that explains all of the facts. and that's a real theme that you're going to hear from the state. take whatters that saying. how do they account for certain facts that just do not fit with that sort of innocent explanation narrative.

>> and the other would be the amount it's not a normal catch and kill scheme. >> source agreements that we did with thousands of dollars and we actually had a limit of $10,000. they would have to go to david publicer's office. so $150,000 is an extraordinary all the of money for a story we weren't running as was the toorman. and david pecker saying the story wasn't true. we never got to the point of learning either way because we were told to stand down. we're paying him $30,000. the luckiest day when he the called the tip line with this story because he's earned $30,000. so those sums of money are highly unusual. and as is the million dollar clause for him, to that point, the timeline here is crucial. it's when the payments are going on and when the storly daniels situation happens right after the acts is hollywood tape.

david pecker is so frustrated about not being paid back. he said i'm not a bank. that's when he says these guys, the campaign is going to have to handle it. >> i know a lot has been made of michael cohen's credibility, but what did he go to jail for? >> just answer for me. >> perjury. >> what was he lying about? >> it's almost hard to follow. what is it exactly? >> his main perjury was in congress. it was for donald trump lying about the russia and moscow deal. the fake election stuff was what he pled to. >> it's in his sentening agreement is about what crimes? election crimes. who was running for president? it wasn't michael cohen. who had sex with stormy daniels, it wasn't michael cohen. who it a love affair with karen mcdougal. it wasn't michael cohen.

>> al this last witness is because they know they are going to try to say it was michael cohen who did this personally. >> he department benefit at all. i'm trying to pick up on the common sense thing. >> let me just say a cohen point right now, both sides the defense has take a call of calling him cohen instead of the first name and trying to dirty him up in a sort of opportunity toir way. even the prosecution has put in a few things about he's a challenging kind of client for that bank guy. pecker thinks he exaggerates. so the jury, i'm sure, is very curious to see this guy. and i think the da's main task, they have laid the tracks well, but they know that cohen is coming. their main task is between hicks, between pecker, and then the paperwork is to corroborate every single hole so at the end

of the day, they can get up and say, look, michael cohen, first of all, you can believe him for these reasons, but even if you don't, every single piece. but i bet back in the jury room, there's a lot of questioning of who is this cohen guy going to turn out to be. >> do you need cohen? >> they have concluded they do. it's a really good question because if they department, i think we wouldn't be seeing him. they called him a tour guide. i think what they want to do is minimize his role, put him in the middle. you don't want hum at the end or the beginning. there are a few pieces it seems to me, like the actual transaction with stormy daniels, i'm not sure how they prove otherwise. it just becomes a bland paper case. i trust their judgment. they have decide d they do need him. >> what are you looking forward to next week? >> i'm looking forward to hearing hope hicks. i think the da is doing a brilliant job of really creating

this narrative. david pecker was never a journalist, but he did an incredible job of bag story teller. i was learning things for the first time. he really did lay it out perfectly for the jury in detail. there was something i learned for the first time this week, which was pretty stunning to me. that was keith davidson, who you just played that recording of before went on election night, he text dylan howard, one of his key sources. they had a relationship that went on for some time. on election night, he text dylan howard and says, what have we done? and for me, that was just a moment in court this week where i just thought, that's what i have been asking that. i was asking myself that on election night. what have we done? >> it's part of the phenomenon of the moment to think i must be crazy. what you realize when any

device, whether it's a congressional hearing, a criminal trial, shows, no, you weren't crazy. the other thing we learned was about a pardon for election interference. all of the known criminality on the part of these folks was stunning. >> he was texting his mom and saying at least we'll get partnered now. >> that thought process just went into the mind of dylan howard where he probably won't hear from him on the stand, but we did learn what was his conscious. what was going through his mind. it was stunning to hear that. >> lots of great spine doctors here in new york thank you for being so generous with your time today. the rest of the table sticks around. we'll have much more on what happened in court today we'll ask our legal eagles what

happens next. later in the broadcast, more than three years after his harrowing testimonies before congress about his near death experience on january 6th, the search for accountability for those who started the insurrection, the guy who lit the match donald trump continues. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. (vo) you've had thyroid eye disease for a long time. and you've lived with the damage it caused. but even after all these years, restoration is still possible. learn how at tedhelp.com.

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his statement was he received a retainer, not from the campaign. through which he entered?

>> that's not accurate. >> you have mentioned some individuals to my colleague from new york and also in your testimony about mr.wisenen berg and other individuals. who are those individuals? are they with the trump organization? >> they are. >> are there other people we should be meeting with? >> alan weisselberg is the chief financial officer. >> give us as many names as you can can, so we can get to them. >> ms. rona? >> rona graff is trump's executive assistant. >> would she be able to corroborate the statements? >> yes, she heard all this directly. she's involved in a lot that went on. >> joining us the host of politics nation here on msnbc and president of the national action network the reverend al sharpton is here. hearth ri, i want to come back

to you on the rona of it all. she was on the stand today. tell me how that went down. >> she was on the stand for not very long. you're absolutely right. 34 years or something, she knows everything. they obviously concluded that she wasn't a safe witness for them. they used her basically only to in lawyer terms, authenticate who the contacts were, who the calendars was, and at the end she gave a peon to what a great boss he was. when she walked from the stand, trump stood up and wanted to sort of hug her. in front of the jury, improper. and the guards came to stop him. but she was a friendly witness, and the da decided it just wasn't safe notwithstanding how much she knows and she wasn't on long. >> i thought she had some interesting testimony though. rona is the gate keeper she was for years. she was up there. in my ear i could hear donald trump yelling, rona, get me my

messages. she worked for him for so long. what donald trump's lawyers try ed to establish with her is that she did come to trump tower. it's interesting just before i get to that. she had to testify about contact names she put into his rolodex. karen mcdougal was entered and then stormies was entered, but it say stormy daniels. it just said stormy with a phone number. stormy daniels came to trump tower in 2007. she writes about it in her book. she had been there and they tried to position this visit as she was coming into try to get on the celebrity apprentice. she was angling to get on the show that nbc was not going to let that happen. that's how they were trying to portray her as a potential contestant.

i don't think she would have fit in, but it was different than mbas vying for jobs. >> can i make a economic comment? what's interesting about that to me, trump has all the way denied having had the tris with her. most defendants the defense would be, yes, he's a little sleazy. he cuts corners, but he's not a criminal. they can't make that defense because trump is right there. they won't let him. so they are having to carry that weight. therefore, have a whole narrative of, oh, she was just there for the apprentice. you add that up with mcdougal and everything they have to deny because trump is client and they have to substantiate what he's done before, and the weight of it is just too much to bear. the jury will say, not all these

things can be lies. and given the way they have defended it, that makes the whole case very hard to defend. >> and i think the jury has seen, they will decide, they are the only people who decide if he committed crimes here, but what they have seen is a very, very, very good friend of his who still likes him very much. so then rona who is still loyal. so they haven't heard from anybody who whose credibility they would think they wouldn't trust that seems like a pretty good place to start. >> what the defense is pawing just waiting for this. his name is to them cohen, what they call him, they will see that as the center piece of the trial. to andrew's point, it's really true they haven't had a narrative. i think the cross of pecker was technically sound, but just didn't get anywhere because they tried to -- this guy is not a liar. he's a very interesting figure.

he's a scoundrel of some sort, buts he's not a liar. they are just trying to poke any hole they can find, but they are not doing it themically. the only theme is michael cohen is the devil of all devils. with all the corroboration and everything there, it's going to be a hard, hard road for them. >> if michael cohen gets up there with trump's team plans to call him a liar, then you have to believe he didn't have sex with mcdougal or stormy. he didn't run for president, he went to jail because what? >> because of what, if he went to jail for doing something, how can you say it wasn't done? >> right. >> and the only way that it was done is he had to do it with donald trump. last time i checked, michael cohen wasn't running for president. and i think if i'm the da, and i don't have any insight to the

da, you make michael cohen as sleazy as you can. in closing, i'm going to say he was his lawyer. this is who he paid. in fact, he told you that these were for legal services. services that we still want want to know what they were, what was he paying this money for. this sleazy guy they told you who he is, that donald trump who could have picked anybody on 5th avenue, but he chose this guy. so that's going to hurt him. and the other thing that i would say in closing is rona, who i knew because we had to go through her, why would rona have a contestant for the apprentice coming to see donald trump. donald trump didn't deal with the contestants. and storly, not even a last name. >> we heard today he did for "celebrity apprentice." >> a lot of it just leaves too much. they are going to dig themselves

a hole. the digger for michael cohen, the sloezs sit guy was his choice who he wrote these checks to. this is his guy. >> it feels like with michael cohen, i'm not a lawyer, but it feels like they are trying to make him out like an obsessed lone ranger, that he was obsessed with donald trump. now he's obsessed with taking him down, but before he was the boss. even today there was testimony from the banker. at times i felt like i was back at the civil trial it was so dry, but michael cohenen couldn't stop talking about how he worked for donald trump. they keep just putting that in at every point and you're hearing it. it's become repetitive. >> very quick point on that. very clever the way they peppered it in. pecker says, he couldn't pay for lunch without donald trump's approval. so $130,000. and always they refer to trump, when cohen, the pos.

it's always the boss. and the da makes a a point of it. >> i have noticed that about pecker too. the defense team describing cohen that way, but we all know the story, we learned it first from cohen. the jury is seeing it reverse engineered. even if cohen told bragg where to go and what doors to press on, what the jury has heard is david pecker tell the whole story. as a coconspirator, cohen is just running the money back and forth. the other thing -- >> that's the trial in a nutshell so far. really effective. >> cohen is a salaried employee. so what is the jury going to be led to believe? why did trump pay him legal services? >> that's the huge question. he was getting a w-2 every year. why was he getting these payments? they are not accounted for in his taxes through what would be called a 1099 payment if you get

a lump sum that's extra. you may get a 1099 payment depending on that. you just don't see them he was a salaried employee, so why was he doing this? >> thank you for making the trek up here and for being here. we thank you both of you. the rev sticks around. after the break, more than three years after he was on the front lines defending the u.s. capitol and the men and women who work inside of it from donald trump supporters, the mob sent to the capitol, an officer has a warning for voters. we are the last line of defense this november. he's my next guest. is november. he's my next guest

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someone who would sit and watch that attack on television, who would refuse multiple pleas by his family, by his senior staff to tell the mob to leave, we know that someone handed him a note that said a civilian had been shot at the door to the house chamber. and he put the note on the table in front of him and continued to watch the attack happen and wouldn't tell the mob to leave. that's evil. it's evil. and that's a moral issue.

>> palette cleanser, if you will. truth bomb from former republican congresswoman liz cheney talking about what is evil. talking about the ex-president's conduct on january 6th or lack of conduct. during the attack on the capitol. it's a conversation she had had with john meacham wednesday night it was a conversation on democracy and how leaders should put principles ahead of politics 37 the ex-president and now the presumptivive republican nominee continues not just to down play january 6th, but to celebrate the events of that day refering to the rioters as hostages and playing music that they have hi seeks another term for president. our next guest who bravely defended the capitol and the men and women inside of it on that day told congress this, quote, i feel like i went to hell and back to protect members of congress and the people this

this room. too many are telling me that hell doesn't exist or that hell wasn't that bad. joining us at the table is former police officer michael fanone. he was one of the brave officer who is defend the capitol from the violent insurrectionists who stormed the capitol. his book is called "hold the line." how are you doing? >> hanging in there. getting by. thank you for having me on. >> thank you for being here. we cover with a lot of horror what trump says and does about january 6th, but we weren't on the receiving end of what liz cheney calls the evil. you were. what is it like to watch him campaign on january 6th? >> it's disgusting, but it's something that i have grown accustomed to at this point. quite frankly, i have come to

expect. i think what's most concerning for me is as law enforcement officer who like hundreds of other police officers from d.c. police and capitol police responded on the 6th, watching my former colleagues in the law enforcement community continue to embrace donald trump and this maga movement, and i would ask them to pay attention, listen to the things that he's saying about individuals who stormed the capitol and assaulted police officers. your fellow brothers and sisters in law enforcement, who were there just doing their job. i responded because i heard distress calls coming out from other cops. my department absenteed the call from capitol police who were under siege. is this really someone that you

believe backs law enforcement? donald trump supports those that support him. as evident by myself and the officers that were there that day holding the line on january 6th. he would embrace us had it been any other circumstance other than his supporters doing his bidding at the capitol on january 6th. >> why do you think members of law enforcement believe him instead of people like you? >> i think there's a whole host of reasons. why do people support donald trump? there's people that buy into his racist, homophobic, antiamerican ideology. there's police officers saying there's a microkaump of society. but there are other cops that

don't have the information. i have spent the past two and a half years traveling the country talking to americans about my experience on january 6th. more often than not, i met with i had no idea. no idea it was that bad. it's unbelievable. i think it rings true with a lot of police officers, just have no idea what happened on january 6th. a lot of it has to do with the fact that donald trump, his surrogates and his supporters in media continue to lie to the american people about the reality of that day. >> we make this mistake, people like me who cover trump, of thinking because he seems so hapless that he's not strategic. but it seems that the minimiing

of january 6th is for the purpose of what you just said. so the truth won't get to other law enforcement or law enforcement families. when someone is in law enforcement, their whole family waits every night for them to get home. and i wonder what you make of this effort, republicans against trump is a big effort, liz cheney has said she'll spend every fiber of her body to make sure he never gets near the oval office. what do you think of the effort to create these permission structures for peel who may have liked him before to say, no, because of january 6th and because of his promise to govern like a dictator, never going to do that again. >> i think that everyone has a responsibility, at least those of us who love this country and love democracy to do everything that they can in their power to ensure the future of our democracy. right now, i think the biggest

threat is donald trump in a second trump presidency. that being said, i thought maybe naively that being a former trump supporter, a police officer, a white guy, that maybe i could communicate with some other trump supporters as to why -- how i was bamboozled, lied to by the former president, but unfortunately, i guess you'd say their messages apparatus is strong enough to withstand even my country. >> it's amazing. i want to ask you how those conversations dpo. i have to sneak in a quick break. stick around. we'll be right back. around we'll be right back.

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(♪♪) (♪♪) try dietary supplements from voltaren, for healthy joints. we are back. rev, you have a question. >> let me say how much respect i have for you, michael, and your colleagues. one of the things that i wanted to ask you. you talked openly about a the lot of the appeal of donald trump. he's racist, he's homophobic, and i don't believe everybody voting for donald trump is a

racist, but i believe every racist voting for donald trump. but let me ask you as one who went through this experience, how do you feel when you hear him call people convicted of what they did to you and your colleagues hostages? we're now in the midst of a host act situation in the middle east. for him to even remotely equate these people convicted and in jail for what they did to you, how do you react to seeing the former president of the united states saying these people are hostages and what does that make you guys? >> it's outrageous. but it's outrageous by design. the point you were getting at, method to donald trump's madness and i think this is like obviously he recognizes the fact that these individuals, those that stormed the capitol on january 6th make up a core group

of his supporters, and this is a way of keeping them in his camp. and also i think he recognizes the value of individuals that are willing to commit acts of violence on his behalf and how that can play into potentially a future presidency or a potential loss in 2024 just like it did in 2020 when he called upon the proud boys and the oath keepers and the 3 percenters and we saw what hell they unleashed on, you know, a small group of police officers who were just trying to defend the capitol, do their job. >> when you, you know, see the supreme court entertain this idea of absolute immunity, it's hard to say with a straight face, and it looks like a criminal trial where he'll face

consequences for january 6th, is it not likely to happen before the election, what do you think of the country that can't pull off accountability for an ex-president? >> well, i think that -- i mean, i've always said that, you know, institutions are not -- will not protect our democracy, do not protect our democracy, have not protected our democracy. it's individuals that occupy positions within, you know, those institutions. you have, for example, my police department did not protect the capitol on january 6th. individual members of my department, of the u.s. capitol police, metropolitan police department, made conscious decisions that they were going to respond to the capitol and stay there. same can be said for the department of justice. you know, individual members of the department of justice made a conscious decision that they would not be corrupted by donald trump, that they would not

submit to his illegal scheme. unfortunately, you know, what we see with the supreme court are individuals who are met with a moment and chose not to rise to the occasion but in a way at least in my humble opinion, i'm not a legal scholar, kicked the can down the road. unfortunately, there's not a lot of road left to kick the can down and so, you know, i think obviously it was a missed moment. they don't seem to feel the urgency that so many other americans do when it comes to accountability for this president and the crimes that he committed, and it's -- it's unfortunate. and i hope that, you know, it doesn't have a lasting effect. >> it leads us, right, the only people with any agency anymore

are the voters. >> voters. >> that's it. that's the whole ball game. >> yeah. >> so what are we going to do? >> i mean, i think, you know, i've said time and time again, every american has an obligation, whether it's this election or any election, this one i think being particularly important, you know, to participate in the process and ensure that democracy lives on for future generations, and in this case it's making sure that donald trump has not become the next president of the united states. >> and see their power getting into the opposite is the tactic, right? it's your life's work. >> and that's why i have a lot of respect for michael. the people that are not the traditional liberal democrats or people perceived as being progressive like me but regular

americans saying we can't have this kind of country. these people were law enforcement and it meant nothing to them and it meant obviously nothing to him to come back and say that the people being held for beating his colleagues and worse, hostages. i hope more americans get that because imagine if somebody that was leading one of these progressive movements, somebody like me called them hostages, they'd be ready to throw me out of the country, and they should. i think the callous disregard and sensitivity that he has shown even now, though they defended the country, you talked about the decisions you guys made. you defended us. we all don't agree on everything, but you defended us. i've not heard him express even the slightest bit of sympathy for the people that suffered that day. >> i'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist, but i'm pretty

sure -- i feel safe saying donald trump is incapable of experiencing feelings of empathy or compassion for anyone other than himself but, you know, keying in on voting and participating in this the election, i can assure you no one is more disillusioned with the political process in this country than i am. i talked to a lot of young people all the time who express the same feelings, many of whom have just -- you know, this is the first election that they're going to participate in, and they're already disillusioned. you know, my argument to them is that everybody has issues that they are passionate about, and while you may not feel as though you're being heard by either of these two candidates, you have one candidate in joe biden who has a long history in politics of respecting the constitution, of respecting the peaceful

transfer of power and serving our republic. donald trump has a very short tenure in politics -- in american politics and already he's incited an insurrection and committed fraud against the american people. and so my choice to them is you choose joe biden and you have somebody who under the democratic process you can air your grievances and try to effect change. >> at least we'll still be a democracy. >> yeah. >> i hope this conversation is to be continued. michael fanone, the book is called "hold the line." reverend sharpton, thank you for spending the hour with us. thank you for letting us into these truly extraordinary times. don't go anywhere.

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