that is our show for tonight and a reminder, you can listen to every episode of alex wagner tonight as a podcast, for a. scan the qr code on your screen or search for alex wagner tonight wherever you get your podcasts. now it is time for "the last

word with lawrence o'donnell.". >> at evening and put me down as desperately available to be on to talk with you and rachel, talking about this trial any night. >> i marked you down. see you tomorrow night. >> thank you. well, the excitement and anticipation in the room had a new high at 10:32 a.m. she entered wearing all black, as if on her way to a funeral. the loosefitting, plain black clothing dripping from her shoulders to her toes suggested modesty. the makeup was minimal. the way she and the other moms in her neighborhood might look when shopping at the local grocery store. the long, blonde hair, held up with a clip at the back of her head, the way it might be in a utilitarian way while doing dishes or checking one of the horse shoes on her horse. she later spoke of so proudly. when she walked by him, her

face had the same expressionless, somber look that all of the jurors always have when they walk by him. looking at the floor. she did not look at him. the first time they were in a room together, his bodyguard was standing outside the door. this time his bodyguards were much closer. she was alone in the room with him that first time. this time there were over 100 people in the room, all watching her. except him. he did not look at her. when she sat down, a court officer said, quote, pull your chair up to the microphone and state your first and last name and spell your name for the record. the witness, ready? my name is stormy daniels. last name, daniels. the court, all right, good morning, ms. daniels.

the witness, thank you. direct examination question. good morning, ms. daniels. good morning. ms. daniels, have you also been known as stephanie clifford? answer, yes. question, what name do you prefer we use in court? answer, stormy daniels. in the next couple of minutes we learned she was born and raised in baton rouge, louisiana. quote, my parents split up when i was four years old. i was mostly raised by mom. a very low income family. she was a single working mom. i went to a private, very christian, very script -- very strict elementary school my dad paid for. i was in the journalist club. she was in a room filled with journalists, many of whom were probably editors of their high school newspapers, but there the similarity ended between her and anyone else in that room. she described the beginning of

her career as what she called an exotic dancer and said, quote, the people who make the most for their appearances were the people, the girls, performers who had done adult films. so she acted in her first adult film along with a girlfriend of hers. quote, i will cut out all of the other details and five days later she got on a plane to fly back home and i got offered a contract at wicked pictures. prosecutor, and how old were you at the time? daniels, 23. four years later she was at a celebrity golf tournament in nevada where the adult film company, wicked entertainment, was sponsoring one of the holes on the golf course. question, did you meet donald trump on the golf course at that celebrity golf tournament in lake tahoe? answer, yes i did. question, can you describe how

you encountered him on the golf course? answer, it was a very brief encounter. the players came through very quickly. we met every person who was in the golf tournament at the moment. they came through. obviously, they would take their shot. i would say hello and introduce myself to them. i introduced myself, the company, and the other contractor girls, not just a mr. trump, but to every player that came through. give them water, posed for pictures. it was a very brief encounter on the course. every one of the dozens and dozens of golfers that they had a brief encounter with stormy daniels at that hole on the golf course. for donald trump, the encounter continued today in a manhattan courtroom almost 18 years later. donald trump was the only man on that golf course that they who did something stupid enough to land him in the defendant's chair in a courtroom today for

the $130,000 paid to stormy daniels to buy her silence about what happened next. that, too, she said was very brief. donald trump invited her to dinner according to her testimony. his bodyguard brought her up to his hotel room to meet there instead of at a restaurant. she testified that she expected to go to a restaurant and they never did. she was not excited about going to dinner with donald trump, but her publicist was. he said, i think you should go. it will make for a great story. he is a business guy, like what could possibly go wrong? stormy daniels told her now familiar story of that evening in the hotel room with donald trump, leaving out some of the details she has included in previous television interviews, at the direction of the judge who tried to keep those details

at a minimum, but donald trump was apparently bothered by everything he heard in her testimony because the judge held a bench conference with the lawyers in the middle of stormy daniels' direct testimony outside the hearing of jury in which the judge told donald trump's defense lawyer that donald trump committed contempt of court, right there in his chair, in the courtroom this morning. the judge, i understand that your client is upset at this point, but he is cursing audibly and he is shaking his head visually and that's contemptuous. it has the potential to intimidate the witness and the jury can see that. mr. blanche, i will talk to him. the court, i am speaking to you at the bench because i don't want to embarrass him. i will talk to him. the court, one time i noticed when ms. daniels was testifying about rolling up the magazine and presumably smacking your

client and after that point, he shook his head and he looked down and later i think he was looking at you, mr. blanche when we were talking about the apprentice. at that point he uttered a vulgarity and looked at you this time. please talk to him at the break. mr. blanche, yes i will. immediately after the lunch break, before the jury was brought back into the courtroom, defense attorney todd blanche asked the judge for a mistrial saying that so much of stormy daniels' testimony was unduly prejudicial, including details like donald trump, quote, not wearing a condom. todd blanche raised to that and said this has nothing to do with why we are here. that the details of the sexual encounter were, quote, extraordinarily prejudicial and you can't unring that bell for the jury. the district attorney said the

conduct that stormy daniels described as a witness was precisely the conduct that donald trump was paying to try to hide. the judge noted that he sustained almost all of the trump lawyers the -- lawyers objections and then said in an insult to the trump lawyers, quote, i was surprised there were not more objections. that was a signal to donald trump that his lawyers did not do a good job in that section of the trial. the judge said he would issue a limiting instruction to the jury to limit what evidence they can use from stormy daniels' testimony about those details in reaching their verdict. on cross-examination trump's defense lawyer susan necheles spent a full hour of flat, unrevealing question and answer before ever getting to stormy daniels' testimony about having sex with donald trump. susan necheles used the word,

pornography, several times to describe what stormy daniels does for a living. it was all leading to the one point that susan necheles wanted to make for the jury. question, you are looking to extort money from president trump, right? answer, false. susan necheles did not complete her cross-examination today when the court session ended . she had just begun asking stormy daniels about her attempt through her lawyer, keith davidson, to sell her straight to the national enquirer during the presidential campaign in june, 2016. stormy daniels' answer as to why she was trying to sell her story was, quote, get the story out and make some money. for most of her testimony she was wearing eyeglasses that created even more of a remove from the image of an adult actress. stormy daniels will resume her

testimony on thursday morning. leading off air discussion tonight is andrew weissmann, former chief of the criminal division in the eastern district of new york. he is a msnbc legal analyst and co-author of the best-selling book, the trump indictments. the historic charging documents with commentary. also with us in the courtroom today and who will be in the courtroom every day of the trump trial. lisa rubin, also in the courtroom today. i was in the courtroom today, too. lisa, i want to begin with you because i am challenged in trying to describe the feelings in this courtroom. it is just such an extraordinary place to be, especially today. >> especially today and especially contrasted against yesterday, which was one of the most old days of trial testimony and also one of the

most significant, because yesterday was all about actually proving the crime that has been charged. 34 counts of falsification of business records by showing the witnesses who testified. each and every business record alleged to be false and taking them through the statements that are supposedly false. today, by contrast, did not have very much to do with the law and everything to do with the narrative. i want to get back to something you said about todd blanche, who was, in his motion for a mistrial, told the judge juan merchan that trump had nothing to do with what we're doing today. have to tell you, i think it has everything to do with why we are there, because donald trump engaged in a long conversation with stormy daniels the night they were supposedly going to have dinner about the adult film industry and he asked a bunch of questions, she said, that were different from the questions people usually ask. i will quote from the

transcript. they want to know the salacious things. these were very thought out business questions. i can't tell you if i ever remember someone asking, other than donald trump, do we have a union and how do we get paid and how does the testing work in the industry? are we worried about getting pregnant or catching something? stormy daniels assured donald trump that she was safe, that every test she had taken it, good. at that point in the industry test required every 30 days. i was quick to point out that in my time in the industry, i chose to work for wicked pictures because they are the only condo mandatory company. in other words, he elicited from her that she was safe, that she had no stds, before he selfishly engaged in a sexual encounter with her from which she testified she literally disassociated while she was staring at the ceiling. because while she would not say she was threatened physically and clarified she was neither threatened physically nor

verbally, she felt cornered. she felt she could not get out and asked herself, and this is also in the transcript, essentially what had i done that i so misread the situation? what have i done to get myself here? and so with all due respect to todd blanche, that was a big part of why we were there today because that is the story that donald trump and michael cohen never wanted stormy daniels to tell anyone, much less all of the american people. >> and lisa, stay on that point for a moment. i wrote it down right here in my notebook. the very worst thing that went through my mind is 60-year-old donald trump, not wearing a condom with a 27-year-old woman from louisiana. a state for a 27-year-old woman or a woman of any age now cannot get an abortion if they make the mistake of having sex with someone like donald trump, who is not using a condom. and the idea that that abortion

ban that so many women in this country are living with was inflicted on them by the defendant in this case, described today as not wearing a condom. >> that part of it, i will tell you, did not even occur to me. the power imbalance on the other hand, and in particular what i will call the fortune imbalance between them, it is not lost on me that susan hoffinger for the prosecution throughout for stormy daniels that she was not only from a messy home life and a troubled home, but she was a star's didn't who won a full scholarship to study veterinary medicine. why didn't she go? because you still needed money to pay for incidentals. she stayed home for a year thinking she was going to make money and that is how she became an exotic dancer. you and i can say to each other we wish we lived in a world where educational credentials and smarts of accusing a former

president of something that is not sexual assault, but is not quite consensual shouldn't matter, but that is not the world we live in now. understanding how jurors think now, their first move was to situate stormy daniels, former adult film star, as being every bit the intellectual equal if not more so than the person she was accusing of the crime. >> there was a lot of chatter in the courtroom today by reporters who had not spent their lives in courtrooms as reporters. general political reporters find themselves in the courtroom. i don't think they know what they are experiencing. among that group there was a chatter about how the jury doesn't like her, isn't going to identify with her. you have handled many prosecutions, with witnesses who are murderers and confessed murderers in cases on the

witness stand. it is not uncommon for juries in criminal cases to have key prosecution witnesses be in ways in life that are completely alien to the jurors themselves. someone in this alleged crime decided to bring that person into his life. >> it is really a false thing to look at, is a juror going to like somebody or dislikes somebody? i have done trials where many mobsters who were cooperators testified and of course they are not likable. they are committing all sorts of crimes, but the issue is are they credible in terms of admitting what they did and candid about it? in the same trial and thinking

about, there was somebody who was an account -- and accountant for the mob and jurors hated him because he was not sort of owning what he had done. so i really think that that is where stormy daniels said on cross, yes, i hate him. i do not like the defendant. that is actually, from a prosecution point of view, that is a good thing. >> let me just read that testimony. this is susan necheles, the defense attorney. am i correct that you hate president trump? daniels, yes. i want him to be held accountable. you want him to go to jail, am i correct? >> daniels, if he is found guilty, absolutely. >> i want to focus on something sort of big picture, because this is obviously sensational and you understand why people are interested in it. there are a few things that seem

so topsy-turvy. one, it does not matter whether she is believed or not. there are three instances that have been brought before the jury that are the subject of the catch and kill. the doorman, ms. mcdougall, and stormy daniels. everyone agrees that the doorman story was not true. it still was something they did not want to get out. so all of the theater of maybe she was telling the truth, maybe she wasn't, maybe is important for a political audience, but in terms of this jury, it is actually irrelevant. it will help the government show that she is, in fact telling the truth, because it is more motive. but in many ways she is an exhibit today. this is the story they did not want to hear and that is why the details, the ones that todd blanche says are irrelevant and salacious, it's not really true. the issue is, do you believe

her or not, in terms of that issue. she could say all sorts of terrible things. the real issue is, are they going to believe her or not and then is this something they would want to suppress? leave aside that this does not convey donald trump as a paragon of virtue. everyone knows that. nothing about what happened today is changing anyone's mind, but at this trial you have already heard about election fraud from his friend, david pecker. intentional defamation and lying to the public. hope hicks said no problem with deny, deny, deny. why? because those are the things we do. todd blanche says i want a mistrial because they went numb says he did not use a condom. -- a mistrial because the witness says he did not use a condom. this is the thing they want to

mistrial over? >> as usual we were sitting beside each other in the courtroom, but we can't talk in the courtroom, so i really don't know what you think. there were so many moments that were so striking and unique to this trial, but i want to open it up to you. what are your main reactions to today? >> to build on something both andrew and lisa were saying. it gets to the question, why put stormy daniels on the stand. we talked recently about the evidence showing the entire reimbursement scheme on paper. so you know, it reminds me of an expression that a lawyer once told me. facts are not persuasive, stories are, and today we got stormy daniels' story and to the point that lisa was making about the comment that trump was interested in business questions. she told that story before in 2011 to intouch magazine.

i am sure that will come out on redirect once prosecutors get to it and then later when talking about the remarks that he did not wear a condom. that testimony was much darker and also a story that she told before. she said in this exchange, was he wearing a condom? no. was that concerning to you? yes. did you say anything about it? no. why not? >> i didn't say anything at all. was it brief? yes. do you remember at some point getting dressed? can you tell us what you recall about getting dressed? this is the part i wanted to flag because it was the first time we heard his pet name for her, honeybunch. sitting on the end of the bed and noticing it was completely dark outside and really hard to get my sheets on. my hands were shaking so hard.

i had little heels with tiny buckles. my hands were shaking so hard, i was having a hard time getting dressed. he said okay, great, let's get together again, honeybunch. we work great together. now that is a story that will endure through the jurors mind and it came up again later, the honeybunch thing. i did not notice this until the transcript. when they spoke again and he put her on speaker phone, she said, he would call on average once a week. sometimes two or three times a week. sometimes not at all for three weeks. he would always call. i was working a lot at the time. i was shooting a lot. we always put him on speakerphone. we thought it was funny. it was during this conversation that she said, he would always call me honeybunch. so if the jurors make that connection, they learn the story

of stormy daniels and i think that is where that all came together. >> we are going to squeeze in a quick break and we will be back with much more. we will be right back. ht back. and minerals, nutrients for immune health. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. (♪♪)

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stormy daniels' life changed on january 12, 2018, when the wall street journal published this story with the headline, trump lawyer arranged $130,000 payment for adult film

stars silence. question, when this article came out in early january, did it have an impact on your life? daniels, yes. briefly kinda -- briefly, what kind of impact did it have? >> chaos. my friends asking questions. it blew my cover, i guess, for lack of a better way of explaining it to everyone i rode horses with, everyone in my neighborhood, everyone in my daughter's friends. we were ostracized from her playgroups, from the riding stable, from horse shows. her dad lost his gig in his band. lisa rubin, we got from stormy daniels some strong, clear descriptions of who she is outside of this experience that she went through, but there does seem to be, in her testimony, threads and tones of

commonality which you can hear in other courtroom testimony and even in private conversations that you can have in life with women who have a sexual encounter that they regret, that they did not want to have. she specified clearly that she did not inc. this was -- did not think this was sexual assault, but she was describing a woman in the middle of something she doesn't want to be doing and regrets while it was happening. >> yes and a woman caught in what she describes as a power imbalance. today, for me, was like a constant call back to the e. jean carroll case. i'm sure we have yours at home saying i don't see that. e. jean carroll is classy, educated, a literary darling. she was missing deanna cheerleader and the witness we saw today is a person with a seriously messy home life who

was dancing exotically by the time she was 17 and never went to college. and yet there are threads throughout stories like this, stories i have been hearing since i was 14 years old privately and in courtrooms since last year when i first started attending court trials. this is now my fourth, and adams, i think, too. there are so many parallels in those stories, even starting with the banter. both stories start off in these women's minds as this is going to be a great story to tell at a party. in this case, i'm going to read from the transcript. she says, susan hoffinger says to stormy daniels, what did you notice he was wearing at the time when he came to greet you? yes, he was wearing silk or satin pajamas, like two peas pajamas that i immediately made fun of him for and said does mister hefner know that you still his pajamas? was that someone known for

wearing pajamas out in public? it was sort of his signature uniform. he wore satin pajamas all the time. so for the get go, for her this is like an elaborate joke. i'm going to have dinner with this very famous businessman and maybe i'm going to cajole him into giving me business opportunities, but so, too, did the e. jean carroll story start when he says to her, hey, you are that advice lady. you are that business tycoon. a few minutes later they are throwing negligee's at one another. no, you try it on. a few minutes later e. jean carroll is cornered in a dressing room in an isolated department, testifying that she was sexually assaulted by donald trump in a way that she cannot get out of until she literally forced him off of her and ended up on the sidewalk outside, not knowing how she got there. so i thought today was, a, this is a pattern with this guy, even though the stories are not

similar and how they experience them. even though these two women are dissimilar. also, the details are what make them resonate both for them as a lived experience, but also for jurors or anyone else listening. stormy daniels remembered strange things. her hand shaking as she is putting on the heels. the black-and-white tile. the silk pajamas. all of that to me, and they get andrew's point that the jury does not have to believe her necessarily, but if they do, all the better for the prosecution, because they will be all the more convinced that her telling this story publicly would have turned what hope hicks call the crisis into a full-blown campaign catastrophe. >> andrew, the question of believing stormy daniels about what happens in the room, my question is, how can they not believe it? for the following reason. this jury is going to have the transcript of the access hollywood video in which donald

trump says, it doesn't have to be a closed room, a hotel room. it can be walking down the street. it can be wherever i am. i get to grab them in a sexually assaulting way whenever i want to and they let you do it. he is not talking about stars when he says that, he's talking about anyone. so they will have that exhibit in the room of donald trump's description of his own behavior and then they will have uncontested testimony about stormy daniels being alone in a hotel room with donald trump first in pajamas, then in his underwear. how can they not believe her on what happened in that room? >> so, your argument is exact the what e. jean carroll argued, which is, how hard is it to believe it when there is a tape recording of the defendant saying that he does this? like he is saying, i actually forcibly sexually assault people. he is caught on tape saying

that. so what is so incredible about me saying that is what he did to me? she did have contemporary witnesses who she spoke with to corroborate her story. it remains to be seen what kind of corroboration will be offered, but for instance there are these little easter eggs of things that you can see, which is when she talked about having telephone calls. there are going to be telephone records that i would anticipate are going to come out. and my favorite is, you know how eventually she got out of her nda is she brings this suit in california against donald trump and michael cohen and that is the suit where she says, you know, i shouldn't be bound by this. where donald trump says to a court, i paid hush money of $130,000.

i paid the reimbursement to michael cohen who was paying hush money because of her. >> just to underline it, the reason he told the court that is that is the nondisclosure agreement i'm trying to enforce. i paid for this silence. >> exactly. so that can come out on redirect as well, but i think what is going to happen is because it is not something that needs to be cleared beyond a reasonable doubt, you can imagine that the state will say there is tons of reason to believe it. the access hollywood tape as corroboration. you can assess her credibility, but you know what? at the end of the day many of you may believe her. all of you may believe her. it does not have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. they don't have to pick one or the other because all you have to find is this is something they did not want to come out and you know how we know that is true? hope hicks said that she had a

direct conversation with donald trump that there is no way to get out from that, where donald trump said thank god michael cohen paid this because it would've been terrible if this had come out before the election. >> adam, i kept waiting during cross-examination by the defense for them to score a point, to establish something, and it came out to nothing other than, as far as i can tell, the argumentative question of you are trying to is -- trying to extort him. it also suggests, maybe what you are asking for the money for was not true. >> i think that is what they are getting at the end it goes back to what i was saying earlier about the story, the overarching narrative they want to tell. they want to tell the story that stormy daniels was an extortionist. that is what andrew was saying, it comes down to corroboration.

lisa was talking about e. jean carroll. that was a similar circumstance. i was watching the same trial and there was the photograph and trump could not deny the photograph of him and e. jean carroll, where he confused e. jean carroll with marla maples. so he made a statement on truth social, admitting that there was a brief encounter and he does not remember her and denying everything else. so it came to a barrage of other corroboration, which made e. jean carroll more than $80 million richer, because the rest of it backed it up. the quote i was reading earlier about stormy daniels putting trump on speakerphone to her friends. i would not be surprised if we learn about those witnesses to that speakerphone. the jurors have already seen evidence of her having contact information, of trump's bodyguard. of having contact information

of his executive assistant. earlier in the trial, inputting her contact information in the trump organization outlook database. that is where the jurors will come to identify the story and that is what they will have to attack. >> the mayor of new york today said the city is ready to put trump in jail for contempt of court or any other reason if they have to. you will hear that when we come back. i have active psoriatic arthritis. but with skyrizi to treat my skin and joints,

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soot president trump's trial they were talking about how he might end up in jail if he continues to violate court orders. as rikers prepared for that? have you had those discussions yet and if so what would it look like? >> our amazing commissioner, she is prepared for whatever comes on rikers island. i'm pretty sure she would be prepared to manage and deal with the situation as you see with harvey weinstein. we have to adjust. in this business, particularly around law enforcement, we have to adjust whatever comes our way, but we don't want to do with hypotheticals. they are professionals. they will be ready. >> andrew weissmann, they are thinking about it. >> many people say because the

former president has secret service protection -- >> i am one of those people. >> that he can't go to jail. with all due respect that is exactly backwards. you know the secret service is going to and has to do what the judge orders. as i have said, it is easier to keep him protect did in a jail cell, not harder. their job is to make sure that the people they protect, it is not some nut job taking a crack at them and that is a difficult job the secret service has for everyone. but this will be a challenge, but not any more than, for instance, barack obama and michelle obama faced, you know, when they took office. it was off the charts with the secret service had to do. so you know if the judge makes that call, then the job of the nypd and the marshall service

and the secret service is to carry that out. it is not for the judge to be subservient to them. that is not how the system works. >> lisa, my point about it has been practical. judges are going to be very reluctant because of the practical considerations and you heard that when judge merchan was giving his long statement about how reluctant he is to use jail because of what it might mean to the secret service and the guards, but he did not say i won't. in fact he kind of set i will, but i'm very reluctant. >> i will and i am very reluctant. that has to shape how the d.a. is thinking about this now, too. knowing he has thrown down the gauntlet and said i will, even though i don't want to, that puts the onus on them to make sure whatever the next alleged violation is they present him with, it better be a real serious one that the public understands as commensurate with

some penalty. for example the thing he said this morning about being upset about the witness that was called and they didn't have enough time to prepare and then quickly taken down, that would not have passed muster. so i think it is changing everybody's behavior. certainly changing the lawyers behavior on the trump side because someone had to get through to say that is not kosher, you better take that down. also on the d.a.s side to monitor themselves for the seriousness of an alleged violation, knowing what will happen if the judge agrees. >> one more quick break and we will be right back. h migraine, i see you. for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura and the preventive treatment of episodic migraine in adults. don't take if allergic to nurtec odt. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. it's time we all shine. talk to a healthcare provider about nurtec odt from pfizer.

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as usual, there will be no trial session on wednesday. stormy daniels will be back on thursday and she will resume cross-examination. what will the defense want to establish and what will the prosecution want to establish with the remaining time on the witness stand? >> the fact that the defense has not gone to the encounter. they have not gone to her central story of the affair. right now, her story is unrebutted. they have not tried to undercut it in any way and they have to try to get to that especially if the paint this picture of her as an extortionist. they are probably going to just , given some of the exchanges that happened in court, they're trying to paint her as it

consistent. -- inconsistent. they have to pick out the inconsistencies in her stories and since they have not gotten to that at all, one imagines that if it is coming, it is coming thursday. >> lisa, do you expect the prosecution to want to do some reinforcing after cross- examination? the mac i do, and i think that one of the things they are going to say is, to go back through some of the central details, and to also establish with her that some of what she remembers about the story came back to her in later years. they wanted to do that initially. judge merchan said it was not quite appropriate , and then it became the basis of the mistrial motion, that you cannot have it both ways. you blocked us from omitting some of the detail she recalled, only evident to her later on after she had seen the specific movie and it triggered members for her, but you can't

say her story evolved over time and ask for a mistrial based on details that you blocked us from eliciting. it seemed as if the defense miscalculated in that moment but i do think that if they open the door to the inconsistencies of her memory, they will get an opportunity to establish why certain things came back and how and how we are understanding the event, but in all respects, that by tuning 16 -- 2016, this is the story be largely heard. >> what are we going to hear from the prosecutor and from the defense? >> i think that from the defense, it's easy, because that is, look over here. you are going to hear that the state is desperate, that they are trying to go after donald trump by dredging up this

preposterous story, that they will point out various inconsistencies or ways in which he has described this and she did have an nda, so the point was to deny that this ever happened. she's nothing it did happen so that's for game. they will be sort of saying, with how salacious this is, this undermines the whole case. you think one thing and you blow it out of proportion to say it's a representative and illustrative of the whole scheme and i think that with the states, that is going to be , he is not the unluckiest man in the world, it's not the case that, look at all of the proof together, a defense lawyer wants always say, look at one the leaf, that does not make a tree and the prosecution wants to say, look at the whole piece together. you can point to various ways

she has corroborated and the fact that what she is saying is consistent with the tape- recording of the defendant saying this is what he does, you can point to karen mcdougal. all of that can be a scheme and you can point out all the various witnesses who corroborate the scheme, but at the end of the day, this is a bit of a factoid. it's actually, we are focusing on it and should be, but in terms of the trial, it's not necessary for them to believe it . all they have to know is this is the kind of thing you would not want to come out in october of 2016. >> i wish we could televise the conversation that continued throughout the commercial breaks of this hour. we have so much more we could have said. andrew, adam, lisa, thank you for joining us for this discussion tonight. we will be right back. -ugh. -here, i'll take that. woo hoo! ensure max protein, 30 grams protein, 1 gram sugar,

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